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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
I'm saying this law in particular should not exist.
So, what are you doing to get it changed?

Thus far, it would appear as though all you're doing is bitching about it on an internet forum...
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by Alex View Post
From what I understand, the 'law' only applies to government agencies. Therefore, the Bar owner didn't actually break any law. He is free to fly any flag he wants over private property.
where did you get this "understanding" from?
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
Alex Alex is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by sumyd View Post
where did you get this "understanding" from?
Easy, by reading. Under Title 4 of the United States Code - the.United States Flag Code establishes advisory rules for display and care of the flag of the United States. There are no penalties for failure to follows these 'rules of etiquette ' because to do so would clearly violate the First amendment. Therefore only Gov't agencies are affected by these rules.

An individual on private property can hang a flag upside down and lit on fire, and below the Iranian flag and still no 'law' is violated. Of course, I would never do that because I respect the flag and what it represents. Nonetheless, in spite of media reports to the contrary, no law was broken by the bar owner.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Sure, 'cause that'll land his ass in jail faster than anything else. Simple trespassing and vandalism fall short of the requirements for the use of deadly force...
Yeah, you're right, he's in Nevada, But if he was in Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, South Dakota or Florida, where they have "Stand your ground" laws he would be able to use deadly force to protect his property.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by goober View Post
Yeah, you're right, he's in Nevada, But if he was in Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, South Dakota or Florida, where they have "Stand your ground" laws he would be able to use deadly force to protect his property.
I'm not so sure about that.

The requirements for the use of deadly force normally require that a threat of severe bodily injury or death be present.

My brother is a Florida gun owner, and I know, full well, that he can kill someone who breaks into his house. He's up shit-creek, though, if he kills someone who's vandalizing his front yard...
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I'm not so sure about that.

The requirements for the use of deadly force normally require that a threat of severe bodily injury or death be present.

My brother is a Florida gun owner, and I know, full well, that he can kill someone who breaks into his house. He's up shit-creek, though, if he kills someone who's vandalizing his front yard...
If a bunch of people refuse to leave your property, and begin vandalizing it, you could reasonably fear for you safety, it would depend on the circumstances, if he walks out the front door with a shotgun and tells them to get off his property, he would probably have a case for shooting them if they began vandalizing his property, if they approached him in a manner he found threatening, he would definitely be within his rights in "stand your ground state", I'm not sure if Nevada has anything to override the common law "duty to retreat to avoid violence".
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Senator Thad Cochran, Mississippi (R)
on McCain

“I decided I didn’t want this guy anywhere near a trigger.”
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“My anger did not help my campaign ... People don’t like angry candidates very much.”

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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I'm not so sure about that.

The requirements for the use of deadly force normally require that a threat of severe bodily injury or death be present.

My brother is a Florida gun owner, and I know, full well, that he can kill someone who breaks into his house. He's up shit-creek, though, if he kills someone who's vandalizing his front yard...
You're correct about that. "Stand Your Ground" laws are generally created to remove the traditional common law and/or criminal code requirement that in order to use deadly force you had a 'duty of retreat' first if possible even in you are facing someone intending to commit serious bodily injury or death upon you.

The obvious problem with that requirement is that it sounds nice in theoretical abstract but in reality it to too hard to determine how, when under the fear and time pressure of such a threat, whether the person could rationally come up with a retreat plan. And too often, the requirement just became an unfair way to blame the victim for killing a violent felon intending to harm them by trying to armchair quarterback their decisions without the same compelling circumstances and with 20/20 hindsight.

Thus, the law seeks to place the fault of death squarely and fairly where it belongs--on the felon seeking to seriously harm or kill someone. The laws also seek to provide another deterrence incentive to violent lawbreakers to think twice before looking to commit such crimes.

Most of the criticism of the law centres upon whether the laws will make people too triggerhappy. However, the laws that I have seen do not authorise shooting people for ordinary simple assaults (a straight up bar fight without deadly weapons being pulled for example) and mere property damage and thievery where the perpetrators are not threatening the victim with serious bodily harm or death (they do impute home invasion with that intent to remove all doubts in those kinds of highly intrusive and potentially dangerous encounters).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag

Last edited by O'Sullivan Bere; 10-06-2007 at 12:18 PM.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
If a bunch of people refuse to leave your property, and begin vandalizing it, you could reasonably fear for you safety, it would depend on the circumstances, if he walks out the front door with a shotgun and tells them to get off his property, he would probably have a case for shooting them if they began vandalizing his property, if they approached him in a manner he found threatening, he would definitely be within his rights in "stand your ground state", I'm not sure if Nevada has anything to override the common law "duty to retreat to avoid violence".
If someone's yard in being vandalized, and someone walks out of his house and shoots them because of it, the guy's fucked.

If they approached him, of course, the situation changes. Then again, I don't know how many people would approach someone, who's holding a shotgun, from a distance and in a threatening manner...
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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sumyd sumyd is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Easy, by reading. Under Title 4 of the United States Code - the.United States Flag Code establishes advisory rules for display and care of the flag of the United States. There are no penalties for failure to follows these 'rules of etiquette ' because to do so would clearly violate the First amendment. Therefore only Gov't agencies are affected by these rules.

An individual on private property can hang a flag upside down and lit on fire, and below the Iranian flag and still no 'law' is violated. Of course, I would never do that because I respect the flag and what it represents. Nonetheless, in spite of media reports to the contrary, no law was broken by the bar owner.
no where in reading the Title 4 do I see the words these are only "advisory rules" - however I will grant that no penalty is established.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumyd View Post
no where in reading the Title 4 do I see the words these are only "advisory rules" - however I will grant that no penalty is established.
You are both correct. It's a federal law and it doesn't say it is advisory in its actual words, but that is because it doesn't have to say it's advisory. It excludes enforcement provisions and is not penal in nature because it cannot be legally enforced due to the First Amendment's free speech guarantee. Thus, a person does not break the law by not complying with it. It's considered a 'custom' law, the codification of what they deem proper custom that people ought to follow but are not required to do so. However, the government and other employers can require their employees to follow it when performing duties pursuant to the employer/employee relationship.
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Around 200,000 Irish immigrants served in the Union and Confederate armies in the American Civil War, often forming their own regiments and, at times, fought each other. At Fredericksburg, the Union’s Irish Brigade faced the Irish McMillan's Guards of Cobb's 24th Georgia entrenched in a sunken road behind a stone wall. Ordered to make a suicidal charge, it became one of the most famous events of the Civil War. The re-enactment portrayed in the movie Gods and Generals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
Agentorange Agentorange is offline
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
. Then again, I don't know how many people would approach someone, who's holding a shotgun, from a distance and in a threatening manner...
I wouldn't be approaching someone with a shotgun ,I'd be receding very fast in the opposite direction
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere View Post
You are both correct. It's a federal law and it doesn't say it is advisory in its actual words, but that is because it doesn't have to say it's advisory. It excludes enforcement provisions and is not penal in nature because it cannot be legally enforced due to the First Amendment's free speech guarantee. Thus, a person does not break the law by not complying with it. It's considered a 'custom' law, the codification of what they deem proper custom that people ought to follow but are not required to do so. However, the government and other employers can require their employees to follow it when performing duties pursuant to the employer/employee relationship.
Thanks for explaining that so clearly Sullivan.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Thanks for explaining that so clearly Sullivan.
No problem. You knew your law well there, counsellor.
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Around 200,000 Irish immigrants served in the Union and Confederate armies in the American Civil War, often forming their own regiments and, at times, fought each other. At Fredericksburg, the Union’s Irish Brigade faced the Irish McMillan's Guards of Cobb's 24th Georgia entrenched in a sunken road behind a stone wall. Ordered to make a suicidal charge, it became one of the most famous events of the Civil War. The re-enactment portrayed in the movie Gods and Generals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVCxEupPag
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Familiarize yourself with the law regarding this, and get back to me...
I asked what is unjust, not illegal.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2007
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Re: Veteran Removes Illegal Mexican Flag, May Be Charged

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Of course; you can't get a date or a job and, once you get your prostitute, she probably won't want to sit on the handlebars of you Schwinn...
Steve, if you don't have anything intelligent to add, don't bother posting. We have enough stupid posts on this board as it is (most likely a huge portion of which are your's).
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A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.

Someone should tell them that bad press can be prevented by not abusing prisoners in the first place. Censorship is only needed to preserve the good reputation of those who have tortured and/or murdered already.
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