Disproportionate influence?

You presume to ration influence to particular countries? Who gets to choose who is allowed to be influential and on what basis are such decisions to be administered?

And your argument suggests that if Iraq was not a power vacuum then Iran's level of influence would be acceptable?

Ill intentions and non-benevolent foreign policies are a dime a dozen around the planet.

Indeed, there are literally dozens of nations that harbor ill intentions for Israel. And words are just words. Only acts matter. And Iran's acts have all been extremely rational and predictable. And no real evidence exists of any actual Iranian threat upon Israel. Only political rhetoric of the most common variety.

I'm sure one can scour the backbenches of the Knesset (or some Israeli rightwing newspapers) for some pretty ugly anti-Iranian rhetoric. Would that make Israel into some rogue nation?

Statistically speaking, the USA has a remarkably high rate of 'religiousness' that matches that of Iran. Imagine that.

You obvious don't know me very well.

You haven't actually substantiated this assertion at all as I've shown above.

ahoy matt larson, oh scallywag!!!!

i seen you on tv, matt, and you seem like a smart (and smiling, you did alot of smiling) fellow. don't you think its kinda hard to answer your question, when ya be framing it this way?

is it possible that the "rest of the world" is made of up of so many different countries, with so many different intrests, and so many different agendas, thats its kinda hard to answer what the "rest of the world" might be thinking regarding iran having nuclear weapons?

meaning, there is probably no clear consensus on what the "rest of the world" thinks?

it would probably be easier to answer this question on a country by country basis, i'd think.

i do think it would a bad thing for the united states if iran were able to manufacture its own nuclear arsenal, for the reason i stated earlier; it would make them a heckuva lot harder to invade, should that be a course of action the US government elects to pursue down the road.

yarrrr?

*salutes*

That's reasonable - and you appear to be clever enough to leave it at that.

Personally, I'm a bit ambivilent on the 'positive' angle.

I have previously made the argument that Iranian nukes must be rationally considered to produce a net positive benefit to world security - but that assessement takes "world security" as simply defined as 'nuke war free'. That's an important standard, but ultimately a low bar.

I don't think one can make a rational or credible argument that it would make "world security" substantially less. Certainly no one has made this actual argument with actual rational facts or reasoning - it is only stated and assumed as a given. That's means it is just propaganda.

Ultimately, the answer to the question that is most rationally supportable is that Iranian nukes are likely to be neither positive nor negative in the big scheme of things. I'll spare you all a full demonstration of this reasoning unless it be challenged.

Ill take sheep herder with box knifes over idiot with a thousand nukes any day.

__________________

Then why don't we see the US and its allies preparing to attack the Sudan, Rwanda, Zimbabwe, etc? My problem lies with hypocrisy in foreign policy; not with the nation or its allies (of which Australia is one, so I hold my own country in just as much contempt in this regard).

I agree Michael. Maybe it's a cultural thing as here in Australia it's actually one of our cultural norms to criticise our government and our country. If a federal politician wants to travel overseas they have to spend a week in the media justifying why they are spending $20 thousand dollars to do so, etc. The US (it seems) doesn't have that and as a different society and culture it's far less appropriate to criticise your government and country. Maybe that's where some of the "conflict" on this Board comes from? I don't know. Perhaps this is why people get attacked for "criticising the troops" when they are actually criticising the war (there IS a BIG difference); and the same for criticising foreign policy as opposed to criticising the nation. I think that's a lot of the problem - that many people don't try to view a situation logically from another perspective. Perhaps that's why the world is in the state it is in?

I'm not sure how to see things "rationally" from the viewpoint of a nation that conducts public executions for being gay.

People want to portray Iran as warm and fuzzy, but their ledership is seriously psychotic.

Matt

__________________
De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

Agreed. But the west in general seems quite capable of dealing with many nations around the world who 'execute for being gay'. Saudi Arabia, for instance. Unfortunately when you get into the middle east, africa, and Asia this level of intolerance is quite common.

If you are looking for reasons to let bombs fly onto Iran, that reason alone is not sufficient.

Andrew

__________________
Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

hmmm, for a second there i thought you were talking about Craig and bush.

__________________

Based on that comment, thought appears to be what you didn't do......

__________________
De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

I suspec that this will, like so many other things, be much ado about nothing. While Iran is not the happiest place to be, it has actually progressed significantly in the last 30 years, despite intense meddling from the West. No, it's nowhere near perfect or ideal, but it is more liberalized than our "allies" the Saudis.

If they develop a working nuke (not convinced that they will), I don't see it being any more of a threat than their other weapons. Their leadership is not stupid, nor are they suicidal. Even an attempt to deliver a nuclear weapon to Israel or the West would result in repurcussions that they know they couldn't live with.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

The point I hear being made is for a viewpoint from a myriad of nations, not just Iran's and the US'. The rest of the world may not actually see them as the same threat we do.

I don't think I've seen anyone portraying the warm and fuzzy part (I could have missed something), and while perhaps neurotic may be a more accurate diagnosis, I hope most rational people would agree with the spirit of your final sentiment.

__________________
'Till things are brighter, I'm the Man In Black. -Johnny Cash

Great comment Andrew, and I'd be interested in reading Matt's response. I don't think anyone is for a moment suggesting that Iran or its leadership is "warm and fuzzy"; the "point" was more in relation to the justification for a pre-emptive attack, and if there was indeed any justification at all?

It is rational behavior in the context of Iranian society and politics. Nothing particularly unusual here either.

The very term of "faggot" comes from the bundles of sticks used to light the fires under witches. Perhaps I'm too jaded to get too worked up over the judicial barbarism of one particular regime, of one particular nation-state, at one particular point in time. That all just seems to be too arbitrary when one looks around the globe at literally dozens of other countries doing pretty much the same thing - including sworn allies of the USA (Saudi Arabia specifically - they like to swing their faggots high and in multiple numbers too!). Trading and holding hands with one while condeming the other just makes US foreign policy look as self-serving, double-dealing and hypocritical as ever.

Are you (vaguely) asserting that I have represented this? I think my point above addresses this.

Seriously psychotic leadership seems to be rather common out there.

And they kissed too!

Andrew

__________________
Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown