Understand, I am not advocating war. I simply believe it unrealistic to assume a state such as Iran "would refrain from supplying a terrorist organization with a nuke- much less actually using one- knowing full well that it would result in that nations total obliteration were it to be used." One of the benefits of fighting by proxy is the difficulty in attribution of attacks. Consider the immediate aftermath of 9/11. Did you know what state was responsible? There was no invading army or navy bearing Afghanistan flags. The identity of the attackers was discovered through some good police work, but even today the culprit is the subject of frighteningly widespread belief in conspiracy theories.

It is reasonable to believe that conspirators who do a good job of covering their tracks would be reasonably well assured that attacks would not be linked back to them with sufficient clarity to result in counter-attacks.

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I'm not sure how my comment constitutes an insult.

You postulated that one could leave the topic and hand and wander off to apply this line of discussion to the US as well.

I noted that one could do do, if one's attention span were such that they were unable to focus on the topic at hand - Iran developing nuclear weapons.

I most specifically did not say that you lacked such an attention span.

If I inadvertently insulted you, I apologize. Such was not my goal.

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

Welcome to the club Matt.

Rabbit's a bit sensitive.

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It behooves you to explain why they have not already done this with their existing stockpiles of WMD...

And you need to answer the question of nuclear forensics. Any nuclear explosion in the world carries with it a unique signature of where the materials originated. There would be no mystery as their was with 9/11, which was not really a mystery anyway as the FBI knew fully who the culprits were immediately after the event.

When you really consider this issue the chances of iran handing over the culmination of decades of nuclear research and development to a non-state actor who does not share her interests would be ludicrous.

The potential danger warrants only a very minimal level of concern.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

I agree with the "Proxy" effect- but I also know that it is possible to trace the original source of the fissionable material through examination of the fission fragments that will b left behind. Differing ratios of isotopes and all that, and if the inspectors have any data on what the Iranians are producing we'd know if it was them or not who supplied the terrorists with the nuke. Andrewl is entirely correct in that.

Not real interested in "conspiracy theories" to be honest with you, but I also know full well that such mindsets and actions have been committed by various individuals and world leaders in the past. Human subterfuge has been noted on numerous occasions in the human experience so it would be wise to not discount such possibilities entirely. I don't throw such ideas out with the trash, but I do put them "on the shelf" just in case something should come up in the future that would give me reason to want to re-examine those ideas.

Gem

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There is no political solution to our troubled evolution.

"Reality, the left-wing liberal conspiracy. "
Credited to Angry American.

Perhaps because someone has not had a large enough overdose of Allah yet?

It's not unreasonable to think that the people who order this sort of thing...



...because "god wills it" would also be willing to use WMD on the "unbelievers" if sufficiently infused with religious fervor.

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

How well does that work when the nuclear material originates from a secret nuclear program?

Even if something in the fallout bears an Iranian stamp, for example, there remains plenty of deniability of state culpability. We see it happening right now with the Iranian arms and explosives in Iraqi insurgents' hands.

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yarrrrr!

not every matey who walks the decks has a long attention span. i am one of them who has the shorter kind.

i been following this thread, just reading along and throwin' in me two copper worth now and then, and now i am confused.

*scratches his head*

if i am following the mighty larson's line of reasoning correctly, he is saying that iran should not have nuclear weapons because of their treatment of gays.

is this right?


aye

I still don´t understand the conservative mindset. It is too obviously hypocritical.

In the past centuries Iran has not attacked one foreign country! It has not invaded, nor occupied foreign soil!

In the past century, the Iranian people had attempted to establish a democracy reflecting the nation-building values and democratic human-rights propaganda of the WEST. - The last attempt being under Mossadeq in the fifties! - Guess who undermined this process. Guess who got rid of, and suppressed these democratic processes? The US, the UK and the West in general.

Until 1979, the Shah and his massacring and torturing US trained and financed Nazi - Organisation, the SAVAK, oppressed their own people, and sold out their resources to the US.

Guess who decided in 1979, that this oppression had to end? - It was the people of IRAN! They had a people´s revolution, where over 95 % of the population was on the side of the REVOLUTION.

In 1979, one million Iranians demonstrated in Teheran against the Shah! - Nobody was killed.

The US seems to have problems whith exactly these countries, that take the values of sovereignity, democracy and independence as serious as they themselves.

In the light of these realities, the US politicians, Reps and Dems, appear to me as liars and bigots. Hypocritical Nazi-Propagandists. Cynical Opportunists of Power.

Unfortunately, in the light of these realities, the US people, are imo not anymore the victims of such a political system, but enable them through their pathetic self-bestowed ignorance. They don´t even want to understand, that they are the Nazis nowadays, and that the Third World and the Emerging Countries are fighting their imperialism.

But Nazism and Fascisme of today has a more charming countenance, as it used to have. So beware, of the smiling WASP, promising you democracy, human rights, free-trade and fair treatment.

In most of the cases this was just a prelude to brutal political and economical rape.

" With unfailing consistancy, U.S. intervention has been on the side of the rich and powerful of various nations at the expense of the poor and needy. Rather than strengthening democracies, U.S. leaders have overthrown numerous democratically elected governments or other populist regimes in dozens of countries ... whenever these nations give evidence of putting the interests of their people ahead of the interests of multinational corporate interests. "
Michael Parenti, political scientist and author

I still don´t understand the conservative mindset. It is too obviously hypocritical.

In the past centuries Iran has not attacked one foreign country! It has not invaded, nor occupied foreign soil!

In the past century, the Iranian people had attempted to establish twice a democracy reflecting the nation-building values and democratic human-rights propaganda of the WEST. - The last attempt being under Mossadeq in the fifties! - Guess who undermined this process. Guess who got rid of, and suppressed these democratic processes? The usual suspects were of course involved: The US, the UK and the West in general.

Until 1979, the Shah and his massacring and torturing, US trained and financed, Nazi - Organisation, the SAVAK, oppressed their own people, and sold out their resources to the US.

Guess who decided in 1979, that this oppression had to end? - It was the people of IRAN! They had a people´s revolution, where over 95 % of the population was on the side of the REVOLUTION.

In 1979, one million Iranians peacefully demonstrated in Teheran against the Shah! - Nobody was killed. - The Iranians wanted a change in their regime. They welcomed Ayatollah Chomeini.

The US seems to have problems whith exactly these countries, that take the values of sovereignity, democracy and independence as serious as they themselves.

In the light of these realities, the US politicians, Reps and Dems, appear to me as liars and bigots. Hypocritical Nazi-Propagandists. Cynical Opportunists of Power.

Unfortunately, in the light of these realities, the US people, are imo not anymore the victims of such a political system, but acteurs who enable them through their pathetic self-bestowed ignorance. They don´t even want to understand, that they are the Nazis nowadays, and that the Third World and the Emerging Countries are fighting their imperialism.

But Nazism and Fascisme of today has a more charming countenance, as it used to have. So beware, of the smiling WASP, promising you democracy, human rights, free-trade and fair treatment.

In most of the cases this was just a prelude to brutal political and economical rape.

" With unfailing consistancy, U.S. intervention has been on the side of the rich and powerful of various nations at the expense of the poor and needy. Rather than strengthening democracies, U.S. leaders have overthrown numerous democratically elected governments or other populist regimes in dozens of countries ... whenever these nations give evidence of putting the interests of their people ahead of the interests of multinational corporate interests. "
Michael Parenti, political scientist and author

This statement is a glaring demonstration of the benefit of proxy fighting. Either MyLai is ignorant to the actions of Iran's proxy fighters or he relies upon their clandestine nature to further his propaganda objectives.

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You are apparently unaware of Iran's attacks on merchant shipping in the gulf.

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

I would suggest that the reason they murder gays is not because allah wills it, but because accepting gays threatens their power. Domestic politics in these nations is always a balancing act between not offending the IC and not offending the 'people'. This is a widespread problem in the east - they are not comfortable with gays as most of us are. It is rational, albeit fucked up....

Certainly their treatment of gays does not lead me to believe they want to unleash WMD on their adversaries.... that is entirely irrational..... and they have not done so. They have not even offered their proxies the full sophistication of their conventional supplies..

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

The program could be secret but the material is not. The materials in Iran are known already.

You are assuming the Iranian leadership has control over all the weapons going across their border???? Canada and the US cannot even do this across our shared border.

Besides, there would be no time for denial. Iran must be acutely aware at this point that America would blame them anyway and use any such event, iranian sponsored or not, to justify an attack.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

You have open eyes, but your heart and brain are blinded by nationalistic ignorance.

Exactly like the Germans, after 1945, saying:"We did not know about this injust regime. We are only the people, how are we supposed to know!"

The last refuge of the scoundrel is Patriotism!