That's a nice sentiment, but I think Congress realizes that what you say is impossible. First off, such a law will probably just get caught in the networks of committees. Second, if it did get through both the House and the Senate, it will get vetoed without a doubt. Third, it would most likely not have the required votes to override the veto. Congress was not constructed in such a way that it could just react to issues such as this with complete ease and solidarity.

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No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

All of this is fine! It's great info to help the debate. My original question still stands. Why doesn't the Congress simply criminilize the procedure? Why, why, why? Because they don't want a solution. They want an issue they can use against the Bush Administration.

RJ

Much like the wiretapping issue, they wholly approve of it, but want to look like the admin is doing something wrong. "Its only OK if congress says its ok"

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http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

As I stated earlier, while some of my team members went through this when we attended the 3-week/19 day Army SERE at JFK/FT Bragg, I did not...so I can only comment on their comments. Also, each branch has a SERE and in some cases, as with the Army, there are more than one SERE within the branch.

They said it sucked, was horrible, scary-as-shit, thought-I-would-drown, and a few other comments. A few weeks later it became known as "cool."

I am not convinced in any way that this is anything more than the "enhanced interrogation" that we keep hearing about. Nice side-step of a phrase, but I think it fits in the instance of water-boarding.

However, I would not lose any sleep at all over hearing that enemies of America, either foreign or DOMESTIC, were "interrogated" to JUST ABOUT any length necessary in a situation where MANY lives were at stake. Not a wink. I'd have to think long and hard about at what length the interrogation might actually make me lose some sleep. It would have to be a hell of a lot worse than 'water-boarding.'

When I went through water-born parachute operations training (and Scuba, later-on) we were literally drowned. We were held under water until we were forced to open our mouths and BREATHE IN water. At that point, we were pulled out and it was not a pretty picture. It was in fact a very scary feeling.

Would I consider it some harrowing torture? No.

In fact, I think its a great idea and one that should fall within the "Enhanced-Interrogation" phrase.

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Anyone who suggests that torture, let alone less drastic agressive interogation techniques are never effective are fools. Yes, in most circumstances, other techniques are more effective in the long term with most individuals. But as with all things, there are exceptions to the rule, most of those other techniques take substantially longer, and also produce a significant amount of false intelligence before it yields accurate intelligence.

The question becomes when you have circumstances where time is of the essence, or individuals who are unresponsive to the milder, longer-term techniques, if more aggressive tactics (including torture) are more likely to yield any useful information. If you have imminent threats out there, and the choice is information resulting from aggressive interogation now, even with a low degree of reliability (although admittedly some possibily however low of being useful) is that better than NO information whatsoever.

I am so tired of hearing all the things we cannot do according to the left. It is about damn time someone on that side of the political spectrum provides a clear and OBJECTIVE definition for torture, because I have yet to hear anything from the left that doesn't define anything that is even remotely unpleasant as possibly being dubbed "torture", if having a dog on a leash barking ferociously at you constitutes "torture" or even "mistreatment" (as we were told by the Abu Graib hysterics) then the U.S. Postal Service's union has done a crappy job of the decades in protecting its workers from being "tortured".

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"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

Marcus;

How about torture of a sexual nature , Marcus. What's your personal favorite ?

Haha.

That was good.

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Oh really ? You see a lot of naked posties hanging upside down round your way ?

Well, I think the withholding of sex is the most effective form of sexual torture...at least for male prisoners! *grin*

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

Well that's clearly an absence of something, not a torture at all. I was more interested in your approved practices of sexual torture and which one(s) you have a special relish for ?

Soooo, withholding food and water would not be torture under your rigorous standard above?

Whatever gets us the information we need, when we need it, to safeguard innocent lives. In another discussion sometime ago I provided what I felt was a pretty good objective definition of "torture", when I get a moment I will either find that or redraft it for you. Wonder if you would be able or willing to do the same. Then we can have a grown up, meaningfull conversation about an important topic, rather than you just making obnoxious personal attacks.

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

any fool knows that waterboarding is torture , and the question of whether it is or not is asinine.

that said , Torture is effective in some circumstances and the US military should have that tool at hand if it becomes necessary to use it to get vital info.

Marcus;
Obnoxious remarks ? But you've just stated that 'anything goes' in order to obtain information and that you object to being told what you can't do 'by the left'. Surely you don't find your own preferences 'obnoxious' ? What sort of a torturer is that ?

C'mon , everybody knows that sexual torture is the torturer's favorite. The sex organs are naturally sensitive and there's a marked change in the subject's demeanor when they are stripped off and have them exposed, eh Marcus ?

Marcus ?

The difference is that I was making substantive points, that while you may have disagreed with, were nonetheless substantive and pertinent to the discussion (the point being that liberals offer nothing other than definition by anecdotal exclusion on a case-by-case basis, rather than an affirmative, comprehensive, and objective definition).

Your question, however, was simply an obnoxious and baseless personal attack. Either ignorant of, or dismissive of the prospects that someone can find certain actions, however personally repugnant, may sometimes be neccesary for the greater good, you simply make the offensive assumption that there is joy and glee in the hearts of those who disagree with you.

I think it is tragic that we every have to so much as incarcerate other human beings, I find the idea of incarceration personally repugnant to my overall notions of human freedom and liberty, I recognize however that it is something that is fully justified for the greater good.

Paul Tibbets, a great American hero died recently. Many of the left would undoubtedly dub him a war criminal for piloting the Enola Gay on its most famous mission. But he never lost a bit of sleep, or wrung his hands in self-recrimination over his role in the bombing of Hiroshima; and while he never took any personal glee or happiness from what he did, he nonetheless understood it as a neccesary and justified action for the greater good. You could learn something from such a fine man.

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane