A bit arrogant don't you think?

Basically you're saying just because people everywhere don't go off on a pundit-like diatribe every day and say anyone who doesn't agree with them is a brainwashed minion is 'too drugged on consumerism' to care otherwise?

Anyways, I'm really not convinced about this whole Chavez thing especially because of the 51/49 result and the lack of US-bashing in his defeat. It seems like this was staged just so he can say later 'you said our elections were fair!' after his Bolivarian circle gangs scare voters into accepting his reforms.

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Losing faith in Western Civilization one liberal at a time.

I didn't say anything of the sort. Im just calling out the significant lack of political participation and real genuine grassroots democratic movements in Canada and the US. (The US used to be good at this).

And what explains this? The only thing i can think of is people have much higher spending power than they used to and as long as they can keep themselves happy with new stuff on a regular basis they really dont want to think about politics.

Why do you think people in this part of the world don't participate in democracy? Is it because we are so good and perfect that we just don't need to?

That is ridiculous.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

This is the first I've heard...

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"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."
Matthew 5:9

I think what you mean is that not enough people choose to offer their brains to the loudmouths and the pundits. Unfortunately there is a culture of narcissism that is being bred through non-direct forms of communication - through music, movies, and the internet when it comes to politics. Because this approach requires less citation of facts, less requirement of common sense and a user unlimited time to answer a question and do not require discussion of two or more sides i'm pretty much convinced based on comparing the cyber world to the real world that the former is responsible for the political lunacy in the latter.

Again, this is arrogant. You're assuming that everyone you see shopping at Wal-Mart and a kid with them doesn't have strong political views. Unless you've talked to everyone, I suggest you shut up.

People here don't participate? You mean over 100 million people going to the polls isn't participation? You mean political books often being at #1 on the bestsellers isn't participation? You mean asking candidates questions isn't participation? You mean making movies about why you think the president sucks isn't participation?

Get over it, not everybody agrees with you and this fact doesn't mean they're 'not participating.' I'm really sick and tired of this political culture in this country that thinks the media is biased if it doesn't agree with them, the intelligence is flawed or 'propaganda' if it leads to a conclusion they fear, and that people are 'ignorant' and 'blind' if they don't agree with them. We will pay dearly for this behavior and part of having a functional democracy is the ability to debate, not call people names. So, you really are part of the problem, not part of the solution like you might think.

I don't think so when you consider the fact that youth groups are the new way that tyrants consolidate power in 'dictatorships-turned-electoral democracies.' Look at Nashi in Russia or the Bolivarian circles in Venezuela, voter intimidation through violence is outrageous.

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Losing faith in Western Civilization one liberal at a time.

Are you sure about that?

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"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."
Matthew 5:9

Sounds like a consumer society to me.....



Again, not what i said. They may have the strongest of political views, but in the end it does not seem translate into political participation. At best it translates into cynicism or just a feeling of helplessness. And whe you have the opiate of an endless and always in your face consumer culture - why bother... And no, i won't shut up.

I said there was a lack of participation, given the size, the education, and the power of a generally free society to effect change. There is what is commonly referred to as a democratic deficit. Leaders are not trusted, in fact they are mostly despised and viewed as scum. what concerns people in polls is not reflected in what the debate is centered around. And the system is really only open to the elite of society. Bush, then Clinton, then Bush, then Clinton..... and so on. Its starting to resemble the mafia. Its pathetic.

Wow, i can see i touched a nerve. I said there is a serious lack of political participation in this culture (and there is), and my argument is that this is because we are mainly consumers, not citizens. (which seems true to me).

Your rant does not really touch on those issues. You seem to be in a bit of denial..... accusing me of name calling.. WTF... get a grip man.


Like i said, ridiculous. Chavez lost the election, it was fair, and he accepted defeat. There is not much more to read into it except he overestimated his popularity, and he underestimated the power of student groups (youth groups) to counter his campaign. That is democracy, and it worked. The most significant act of political violence in modern history in Venezuela was initiated by the opposition.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

So basically it's not 'being involved in the political process' unless people decide to get on one side of the line or another which has been drawn by O'Reilly on one and Michael Moore on the other? What about people who don't think it's as simple as left and right? You clearly haven't heard of the 'silent majority.' The people who end up deciding who wins in elections aren't the extremists, sure the right and the left division exists but at the end of the day they need to win the support of cooler heads than theirs. Unfortunately, it seems that you have this arrogant view that these 'cooler heads' are just ignorant shoppers. Please go outside. edit...wow man, you've been here for almost over 3 years now with 9,000 posts and it's somehow the rest of society which is insular.

And you come to this conclusion based on what? For god's sake, don't talk to anyone else about 'inaction,' we're talking through an internet forum which can't seriously be labelled 'participation' even by your standards. If this is 'participation' well I guess China must be a democracy.

Consumerism drives economic growth, we live in a capitalist society, what's your point? You seem to think that the existence of this automatically means that because people have to worry about their personal finances that they are insular and don't care about shit. Seriously, maybe when you grow older and have to work and pay your own bills you might realize why not everybody can spend all day on a computer and talk about the news item that popped up 3 minutes ago.

So? People loved George Washington during the war but when he was president, the people didn't trust him then and called him a traitor over the Jay Treaty. Distrust of politicians is NOT by any means evidence of a failing democracy, it's evidence of a skeptical democracy and skepticism is a feature of that.

Bush-Clinton-Bush, who cares? You act like this is a requirement to run for president. And the process isn't 'limited to the elite' either. In the last 4 elections, the poorer candidate won 3 of them. Ross Perot was rich as hell and lost. Huckabee is the poorest Republican and he's #1 in Iowa right now. I think the cynicism which you accuse people of having is coming from you too.

Again, if you don't believe people are excercising their individual rights in the past 6 and a half years you're fucking blind. There's no nicer way to put it really. Not a day goes by where I don't hear something about why America sucks or Bush sucks or democracy sucks or Iran and the third world kick ass and here you are in the abyss of cyberspace complaining about people being silent and inactive.

Yes I did, and you did that in this thread saying that people in general are 'ignorant consumers' when there is no factual basis for which you can use to say that 'people in general' are anything when you're referring to a group of 300 million people, by the way and not all of those are eligible to vote yet incase you didn't know. It looks like you're in denial, not me.

Okay, so here we have two views from you:

One, that 110 million people voting, political movies put into the mainstream, regular complaining and protests and lobbying etc of politicians is a 'lack of political participation' and 'consumer ignorance'

Two, democracy is 'just fine' in Venezuela despite its groups armed with baseball bats and pistols beating the piss out of each other and the government shutting down media stations critical of it. You've got it mixed up, and I can just imagine the posts you'd make if these two things happened in our own country..

Just admit it, you were wrong.

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Losing faith in Western Civilization one liberal at a time.

P.S. yeah it does really touch a nerve when I think about the fact that when I'm Christmas shopping tomorrow I could have some idiot like you looking at me thinking I pay no attention to current events or don't vote for the sole reason that I'm a 'consumer.'

Whatever you say Tyler Durden.

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Losing faith in Western Civilization one liberal at a time.

Yes. It's pretty simple: If I create more than I consume, how can I be a consumer? Why do you ask?

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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to
change it." -- Barack Obama

Chavez is a benevolent Dictator--Bush is an Orwellian Dictator

Apparently your ability to grasp my basic argument is out of reach for you. You personal insults are rather childish - and ironically actually fits the prototypical image i have of the mindless consumer. (although that was not my argument, which is apparently too difficult for you to get).

When you are ready to have an adult level discussion let me know. Maybe when you calm down a bit. Perhaps after the busy day you have buying garbage at the wal-mart - im sure it will be a fulfilling day for you.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Im looking for the MLKs or the Ghandi's, or the Emily Murphy's. Apparently you think these people are extremists. And that the issues they fought for were just simple left and right issues. Your silent majority is uninformed, dispassionate, and the constant subject of advertising and cheap photo-ops and soundbytes from politicians and corporations who have become masters at deception and fraud.

I come to this conclusion based on observation, experience, polls, voting stats, and just plain old reality. Actually i do think that the internet is a revolutionary forum for political action and information. If anybody paid attention to the the efforts of corporations and governments to limit and control the internet (essentially to stop it from being a force for fundamental political change, and make it a force mainly for consumption of entertainment and products) we could preserve the unique potential of the internet for a truly democratic movement.
wow, whats with the cheap personal attacks. My point, apparently i have to spell it out for you, is that we have completely saturated our animal instincts, dumbed ourselves down, and so we don't have either the motivation or the desire to enact change via political movements. You know, the kind of movements that brought us democracy in the first place, that expanded human rights to people of color and the female gender. The one that you dismiss as the acts of extremists and simple minded left/right thinking.

Its evidence of cynicism, indifference, and procrastination. And i never said democracy is failing (although it may be in economically and industrially developed societies). Im more concerned that democracy in our culture is stagnant.
Democracy in our culture is elitist. That is undeniable. Are you saying that George Bush is poorer than the Gores or the Kerrys? lol... yes im sure the Bush family is not elite... WTF are you talking about? Poor Ross Perot is just a man of the poeple, able to identify with americans.... gimme a break.

And yes, im totally cynical about politics in this world. Only an idiot would pretend these people have our interests at heart.



Id like to see some evidence of the informed voter making informed choices about the direction of society. The last six years have been a joke. Even when the democrats were able to get enough people to vote for them they have refused to do what they were voted in to do. Its pathetic. And as a response to this fraud and cynicism the people do nothing except spend billions of dollars on garbage at thanksgiving, only to do the same at christmas, perhaps with some "reality" TV in between. Yeah...thats some democracy we got... Its a joke.




Majorities of Bush supporters incorrectly assumed that Bush favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements (84%), and the US being part of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the International Criminal Court (66%), the treaty banning land mines (72%), and the Kyoto Treaty on global warming (51%). They were divided between those who knew that Bush favors building a new missile defense system now (44%) and those who incorrectly believe he wishes to do more research until its capabilities are proven (41%). However, majorities were correct that Bush favors increased defense spending (57%) and wants the US, not the UN, to take the stronger role in developing Iraq’s new government (70%).

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pr...w_9_29_04.html

Yep, it hardly gets more ignorant than that. Can you imagine, 51% of Bush supporters actually thought he favored Kyoto. That is pretty fucking stupid.

Democracy in the US and Canada is stagnant and sick. Absolutely.

Democracy in Venezuela is vibrant, maturing, and it is marked by strong participation at all levels of society. There is no doubt about that.

The only thing i will admit is that you appear to be one of the mindless consumers that spends most of their time in fantasy land. You have done nothing but display the exact ignorance im railing against. Thank you for being my prop.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Well I hate to break it to you but these people don't exist anymore and they aren't the people I think we should be taking national security advice on. MLK's method had the support of a government willing to legislate and a democracy to get his movement's voice out, even if there was violence against it. Gandhi said the British should've surrendered to the Germans and the Jews should've committed suicide so, um, yeah, I think i'll pass.

The rest of your paragraph backs up everything i've said about you and really puts you in no position to be the one to accuse me of hurling insults. It was you after all, who began insulting the average person (who you DONT know) and I reacted because of the awful stench of ignorance that came from such a statement. Again, you think you're a tyler durden or something talking about 'these average people, fuck them' but guess what? You're going on 3 years now on an internet forum with 9,000 posts. That's 3,000 posts a year! It's you that needs to get a life!!

Lmao, paranoid. Another crackpot who really thinks that one day the 'government' is going to shut down the internet or if they even have the power to do that, you act like the white house has a mainframe with a big sign above it 'teh internets' and an ON/OFF button.

You say that you come to this conclusion based on 'observation,' whats that mean? Experience, what on the internet? Voting stats, ah right forgot, people don't vote your way that means they're idiots. Polls? Do you realize that polls consist of a FRACTION OF A FRACTION OF A FRACTION OF A FRACTION OF A FRACTION OF A FRACTION OF A FRACTION

...of society, and can easily be manipulated and the results found depending on who you ask and where you go? So, you'll have to excuse me if your 'sources' aren't too impressive for backing up your argument that you're Neo and everybody else is part of the Matrix.

Actually perhaps you don't see that anymore because the movements necessary for such things are over now, and the civil rights movement has boiled down to a revanchist victimization campaign intended to get people rich quick and ruin careers through people like Al Sharpton.

What's evidence of that? You still haven't provided one piece of evidence back up anything you just said about 'the majority of people' however many you were referring to.

Bush 41 outspent Clinton, Perot outspent them all, Bush 41 and Perot lost.
Dole outspent Clinton, Dole lost.
Bush outspent Gore, Bush won.
Kerry outspent Bush, Kerry lost.

So it stands. The richer candidate in the last 4 elections lost 3 of those 4 times. Sure you can classify Bush or Clinton as 'elite' or even rich but to say that family status or money alone is what determines presidential elections is stupid and by the way, you said 'indifference and cynicism,' again, this is coming from you, not 'average people.' But hey you want to stay in denial fine.

You mean politics in this country right? Because you seem to be a regular apologist for Venezuela and Iran on here.

Well I tell my liberal neighbor I'm a republican and he thinks i'm stupid. But perhaps after explaining my reasons why I would vote republican he might understand it a little more and vice versa if he told me why he votes democrat, and I have encountered many situations like that in life. Unfortunately that is the first impression many get because they are so inundated with punditry these days that its that which comes to mind first when they think about people they disagree with, and the internet is what perpetuates this environment of intolerance.

By the way how do you know everyone's daily schedule and itinerary? How do you know what everyone does? And why should they be considered 'ignorant' for spending the holidays with their families? Jesus man what are you a test tube baby? Do you have a family, or even a job? Do you pay bills? Your responses here seem to suggest otherwise.

This doesn't back up any generalization about 'average people' nor does it state their financial well-being or whether they're 'consumers' or not. It is not that black and white, plus the link also says this:

"The poll was conducted with a nationwide sample of 959 respondents over September 8-12. The margin of error was plus or minus 3.2-4.0%, depending on whether the question was administered to two-thirds or the entire sample."

959 people. No location, no background, no nothing, says its 'NATIONWIDE' despite being below 1,000 people asked. Yet you call yourself a critical thinker??

Hahaha, I sense someone in denial.

I love how this is your response to two accurate scenarios about government oppression of the media and voter intimidation in Venezuela and 110million people voting in the US, you LOSE my friend.

Ding ding ding!

Well you said mindless consumers don't vote and would answer those questions wrong. So I don't count under your description because I do vote, I do work, I would know how to answer those questions, I do pay bills, I do pay attention to the news (obsessed with foreign affairs, at least 2 hours a day of magazines, books, or internet research). So I count as someone who disagrees with you clearly since you and I have disagreed here on the same forum where apparently the limits of your 'political activity' stretches to. So I'd say I'm more of a participant in this democracy than you, who just googles and posts their life away for three years.

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Losing faith in Western Civilization one liberal at a time.