andrew we went through this already...........carter aside, there was plenty of questions after the last vote...I am not saying he stole it, but he certainly helped it along....

and farc? you have got to be kidding....so its best just to roll over?


at the bottom of this you feel he will do real good with his socialistic mechanics, as compared to having a vibrant wealth creating (as opposed to wealth distributing) free market economy...here we differ..and it will out....as it already is ......

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

The people supported Hitler, and elected him too; that doesn't make him democratic by any means.

Anyway, here's a source about the militias: Students accuse Chavez of arming militias and fomenting violence - International Herald Tribune

Anyway, I gave you facts (something you haven't done, by the way). You're going a little off topic expressing your opinion and the implications of each one, but if you want to start a thread, go ahead.

If you were such a die-hard socialist, you could've told me in the first place, and I wouldn't have wasted my time trying to educate you.

andrew means well, we are trying to educmacate him...

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

So what makes a leader and a political system democratic then?

And the other side accuses the opposition (which already has a history of violence against the government) of inciting violence so they can blame it on the Chavistas. Who do you believe? There is no evidence either way.

No. You gave me your opinions of why Chavez is authoritarian. The facts are on my side and speak for themselves. Chavez is an elected leader who has not violated the democratic constituition of Venezuela, and has recently respected the democratic voice of the people. Where is your evidence to the contrary of this reality??

lol... im neither a socialist or a rabid free-marketer. And you have not enlightened me about anything. The only thing i support in regards to Venezuela is that the people decide their own future, without interference from the US or Europe. More than anything i support independence, and that is what we witnessed with the recent vote. Im only happy that it was democractic and free, i have no vested interest in the outcome.

Now, I'll ask again, do you have any evidence that supports your claim that Chavez is authoritarian and not just a bolivarian socialist? Because really, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Hey, I'm just trying to bring you guys out of the sleepy delusions you are given about Venezuela through your politicians and mainstream pundits. Its an uphill battle, but i have some hope that the truth can actually prevail.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

as opposed to your pundits?

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

OK, let's go back to high school civics (have you had a civics class before?)

Modern democracy involves:

1) Majority rule
2) Minority rights
3) Popular sovereignty
4) Some basic civil rights and civil liberties would also help.

Maybe Chavez succeeds on #1 and #3 (though again, you
can't trust the vote), and he certainly fails on #2 and #4.

BBC News | Americas | Analysis: Venezuela awaits new order
Chavez's Censorship (washingtonpost.com)
Anti-Chávez leader under fire | csmonitor.com
Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders (Human Rights Watch, 8-7-2005)
Venezuela - Amnesty International
Index of Economic Freedom
Hugo Chavez's Corruption Problem - Newsweek: International Editions - MSNBC.com
Hurricane Hugo
Stephen Roth Institute: Antisemitism And Racism
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/57714.pdf

But whatever, I'm not sure I should keep debating you, because you're going to believe what you want anyway. I gave you some more sources of Chavez's clear authoritarianism, but I think it's in vain.

Like the truth that under Chavez's rule, the gap between his country's Human Development Index score and those of the region continues to widen?

Regardless of what you think of his politics, his performance is plainly lacking.

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

The last election was not questioned by any of the outside observers and monitors. It was questioned by the opposition (which has a history of violence and wanting to install a military dictator).

No. Its best to learn the lessons of history. To realize that FARC exists for a reason, and that by working with guerilla groups and negotiating with them, and offering some concessions you are far far better off. The american attitude of eliminating through violence any challenge to authority is ineffective.

If i thought that a free market dominated by powerful institutions like the world bank and american and European energy and resource corporations would actually benefit any of these countries i would agree. But the fact is these institutions are corrupt, authoritarian, and purely exploitive of land and people (especially indigeneous people.

So i think Chavez is a better choice. Either way its none of my business what the choose. Im only in favor of them choosing for themselves. which they have done. That is democracy as far as im concerned.


Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Sure. That does appear to be true. But, these things take time, and unfortunately the previous leaders of Ven. did not diversify the economy beyond oil, which is something Chavez is trying to do. I think it is clear that the low price of oil through the eighties and nineties effected Ven more so than other latin american nations. and that is reflected in the HDI.

That could be true as well. But what i was referring to was his status as authoritarian dictator or democratic leader.

His performance is irrelevant to that debate.


Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Under the previous leaders, the country was either above the regional average HDI, or right at it.

Now, well below and the gap is widening.

Dictator or not (he's not right now, but give it a few years to see if he can emulate his hero Fidel), he's an assclown, and his people are suffering from the results of his poor leadership.

Matt

__________________
De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

Chavez is the hero of the indigenous people, who have long been victimized by the minority. Its pretty weak to make an argument that because Chavez is trying to reverse a bit of that history he is somehow now violating minority rights. That is just ingenuous of you.

Venezuela does not have basic liberties?? what are you smoking.... im not claiming they have a perfect rights record by any stretch (most violations of which predate Chavez BTW), but to claim they dont have basic civil liberties is juts nonsensical.

So by your definition the USA, circa 1960, was not a democracy? In fact, democracy never even existed until women were enfranchised by your definition.


Keep trying. I'm honest and genuine enough to let people know when they have bested me in an argument. You have not even come close to presenting solid evidence that Chavez has authoritarian designs on the Venezuelan democracy. Like i already said, he has done nothing without popular support and a mandate from the people. His response to the loss of his referendum should really lay to rest any doubts that Chavez is not respectful of democracy.

Really, there is a stronger argument to be made that someone like George Bush is authoritarian, with all his corruption, signing statements, and seriously questionable election victories. But even i won;t make that argument, although it is more convincing than anything you have presented about Chavez.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

But they did not diversify the economy, allowing it to be effected heavily by swings in the oil price. And there has been political instability in Venezuela all the way through 2002. It seems to be stabilizing more now.

Id be interested to see how it appears at the end of 2013. I want to be fair and allow for the health and education improvements to realize their potential in other areas. Surely you must grant that basic health and education are necessary precursors to other gains in the development in society?


I think you are overstating this a bit. There is no question the minority of wealthy people have "suffered", and there is no question average city dwellers are probably a bit worse off under Chavez reforms, (shed a tear for them if you like, i won't), but if you go out in the rural areas where the indigenous have truly realized suffering under imperialists, occupiers, and colonialists for centuries, you will see actual improvements in education, health, access to food, and access to clean drinking water.

Like i have always claimed in this discussion with you, i will be here to admit Chavez is a dictator, if and when that day comes.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

No, the US wasn't a real democracy in 1960.

Anyway, you have provided zero evidence to support your claims.
I have given you several articles from reliable media sources and from across the political spectrum to support my claims, while you have not.
It's clear who has a solid argument and who is another Party drone.

I have given you fact after fact, and you cover your ears and keep mindlessly repeating the usual Chavez propaganda.
Whatever, don't listen to information, keep drinking that kool-aid, it'll open your eyes

WOW this thread just got retarded.

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas