But it is there, Si Modo:

I realise that you prefer to ignore my posts, however I have pointed out that Muslims DO speak out, and WOI has pointed out that this practise is not part of Indonesian culture - and yet still you persist in using it as an excuse to bash Muslims.

who is 'they,' Si Modo? Youy are prepared to judge ALL MUSLIMS on a small minority.

So why do you choose to ignore that it does not happen witjh ALL Muslims - and why do you ignore that not ALL 'honour killings' involve Muslims?

and so - if I see programmes where Americans are interviewed advocating 'nuke 'em all' re people in Iran, the Middle east or wherever else - its OK for me to make generalisations that this is your attitude as well?

significant numbers of non Muslim men murder women despite it not being the norm in your part of the world. Are you unaware of that? Have you looked at Family violence statistics in your own country recently?

Are you aware that most perpetrators of mass murders in your country are white males?

Should I make generalisations about American 'culture' that 'tolerates' the killing of families by men who can't cope?

culture and religious practises ARE tied - thats true - but if honour killing was part of that practice thats tied - WHY does it not occur in some Muslim cultures - or to get away from Islam - why was sati (suttee) never practised in Balinese Hindu culture? Why is male prostitution and homosexuality so acceptable in Buddhist Thailand - when true buddhism discourages such practices?

It is because cultural practices that predate a religion arriving in a region often override religious practices.

and in the bible. and in fact - can you point to the EXACT surah where it says a man can stone his daughter to death if he doesn't like what she's wearing?

Again you talk about it as if it is Muslim culture. You are wrong, and there is plenty of evidence for this.

You refuse to acknowledge this because you are biased against Islam.

It is a fact - and you know it, or you refuse to acknowledge it for your own reasons. You are well aware that in another thread (re The WN poster) when I made a comment about Muslims you were quick to jump in.

It is clear to anyone who does not share your bias that you are ignorant and contemptuous of Islam.

LOL have you ever read the bible? or come to think of it - re obsessiveness with sex - watched American TV?

and is this unique to Islam?

I have no choice but to conclude this.

I am very familiar with the area of family violence in immigrant communities, and I have made an effort to write posts which provide relevant information on the subject.

You choose to either not read, or not respond to those posts. In fact, I don't see you as being at all interested in the issue of violence against women. Despite your criticism of NOW - who are obviously very agenda driven - you too are agenda driven. In this instance you are using the deaths of these poor girls to bag Islam.

I prefer to understand why these tragedies occur. I know that religion CAN be used to justify honour killings, and I wont dispute that - however the fact that it is not practised across the Islamic world, and is not unique to Islam - indicates very clearly that the roots lie somewhere else.

While some on this thread seem to want to focus on the religion of perpetrators and victims in these honour killings, and incorrectly generalizing it as an Islamic practice, for me its taken a different line of enquiry.

As I have said in several posts - these killings are most likely more indicative of the the state of mind of the perpetrator, than of religion, although its certainly true that 'cultural norms' are likely to play an influence.

I stress that these are 'cultural norms' not religious norms. As I have said, 'honour killing' can be seen across patriarchal societies, and even in western culture we do see a legacy of these attitudes.

Anyway - I've been looking at some US information on these two sites, which I think anyone interested in the issue of violence against women - rather than just as using this subject as another excuse to bash Islam - will find interesting.

gender: Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Gender

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Intimate homicide

between 1976 and 2005 there was a decrease in homicide of intimates - ie partners, spouses and ex partner spouses, however the percentage of female victims has actually risen:
(see graph below)

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide Trends in the United States: Trends in the proportion of all homicides involving intimates by gender table

what is really interesting to me is the different trends in black female victims as opposed to white female victims (most homicides of intimates involve perpetrator and victim of the same race) which can be seen here:

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide Trends in the United States: Trends in Intimate Homicide Victims by Race and Gender Table

this graph shows To me this is interesting. I have my own interpretation of this, and it tends to reinforce what I have said before, which indicates that the perceived status of the perpetrator is a significant factor.

I would also be inclined to argue that the changes in attitude to 'crimes of passion' is a significant factor.

I believe that in the cases referred to in the OP
a) the cultural (not religious) viewpoint on 'crimes of passion' and 'family honour' would increase the likelihood of honour killing, and
b) the father's (and brother's) difficulties in adapting to/coping with the change in their status within their family/community was also a factor.

In both instances a religious justification may have been used, however it was a justification that does not stand up as valid if one looks at the religion.

If male on male violence of this nature was being regarded as 'honour killing' then the numbers would be far greater than 5000 annually.

yes.

we do talk about national culture, and in particular there is talk of 'American culture.'

'Culture' can be broken down into various sub cultures as well.

When looking at religion, for example, from a cultural perspective we can talk about Indonesian Muslim culture, Middle Eastern Muslim culture, Bosnian Muslim culture - all very very different. And the rules can be quite different.

How about Irish catholics? Is their culture the same as Latin Culture (which may include South American culture), and is Mediterranean culture (which may include Greek orthodox, Arab Muslim, Christian and other, as well as Latin culture.

We know that honour killing is NOT part of Islamic culture, although some patriarchal cultures in some parts of the world are still more tolerant/lenient on crimes of this nature.

We also know that it is not so long ago that the murder of a female spouse in western (christian) culture was a lesser crime than other murders.

Yup, you did miss it...no surprise. But, I bolded it so that perhaps you won't miss it yet again.Did I? It looks like you missed my comment on motive, as well.

What that has to do with this topic is beyond me, but not surprising that a generalizing kinda person as yourself could rationalize a relevance.Sure, do as you will. A starting point would be to define "American culture".Gold star for you!But why are these young ladies mentioned in this thread dead?
The Muslims have done a piss-poor cleaning house.
Sure. Is it common?
Did Muslims not do these killings? You better read the reports again.
You refuse to accept the facts that Muslims did these killings brought up in this thread, but prefer to use WS's tactic of tossing around the bogotry label. Weak, very weak.Although I have a good memory, I have no idea what you are talking about. Thank you for demonstrating you extensive knowledge of me and my views, inaccurate as they are. Please, tell me more about myself since you have studied me for a year now.

That pretty much sums up the futility of responding to you. But maybe you could join others in starting a thread called "Let's make up crap about Si modo".

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

It still doesn't indicate that being American is any less cultural than being Muslim.

This has not been my experience at all.

I have worked with Muslims from Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, India (Madras especially), Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Turkey, Bosnia, Egypt, Eritrea, Somalia, Kenya, Sudan, Libya, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Mali, Senegal ... and a few other places.

I have also been in a number of these countries, as well as Morocco, and been entertained by Muslim familes in Thailand. Plus of course I know Australian Muslims (including those born here).

Many of these people have become good friends. I see plenty of diversity of views. I know Muslim girls who have belly piercings and wear skimpy clothes, I know women who probably cover up more than most women do here, but certainly wear clothes that would pass for normal here. I have spoken to Muslim women who are ardent feminists, men who are henpecked husbands, devout followers and people who only eat halal during Ramadan, people who do not fast at all during Ramadan - and all use various justifications including pieces of the Quran.

Those Muslims living in less pluralistic societies are more likely to be 'conservative' Muslims and follow the teachings as they have been interpreted in the past - but even that does not indicate that these people will practise honour killing as a matter of course - or use the Quran to justify it.

These people are also far less likely to have freedoms, and in some parts of the world I have been I would never want to bring up a daughter - but that doesn't mean that Islam is locked in some time warp with a billion people living as medieval serfs, and with archaic attitudes to women.

Also - FYI - in some ways the west has played a role that has influenced these societies and not allowed them to progress in the way that we have. Often it didn't suit our interests to allow this to happen - in much the same way we sent South America into reverse when we didn't like the way their socieities were progressing.

On what do you base this theory?

again Si Modo - you demonstrate that your agenda is to bash Muslims - and to be rude to people who pick you up on it.

shrug.

If thats what floats your boat ......

You are not at all interested in why these tragedies occur.

Good catch. Things like this are common in areas which have violence, poverty, low educational standards, and poor property rights. From a humanitarian standpoint it would be desirable to reduce this as much as power. At the same time these are many of the same things that give rise to other radical behavior, in particular terrorism. It strikes me that the principle part of any terrorism strategy should primarily work to address these issues if it is to be successful.

Your idea of support for your assertions is bizarre, at best and delusional at worst. But do continue to make crap up about me. It's entertaining.

And yet, these three young girls are dead, killed by their male family members who are Muslims. I know, Daisy, that just is so hard for you to deal with.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

OK, Si Modo - suppose I started a thread titled "American Culture of violence claims four innocent lives" and it went like this:


....

Do you think I might be showing a little bias against Americans?

I would point out that making blanket generalisation of all people based on the actions of a segment is fallacious.

However, if certain populations adhere to inherently violent ideologies which increases the level of representative violence amongst the populace I would not condemn you for exercising greater caution around them.

For example; if a shark approached you in the ocean would you not swim away in fear? The shark may be one of the gentile sharks that would not hurt you but how would you react to the vision of the fin?

Gentile sharks now Frank?

Are you implying that other sharks are Jewish and thats why they are dangerous?

Your anti semitism knows no bounds .....

I could assume you meant gentle sharks, but apart from whale sharks (which are quite different) I wouldn't trust any shark to be 'gentle' - even small ones.

Sharks don't have 'culture'. Well - maybe they do - but if so, not the complex net of cultural phenomena that we humans have. It is highly unlikely that sharks are ever influenced by religious or political or cultural ideologies .... shark attacks are motivated by other factors, so I'm not quite sure what your point is.

Do you mean that if I hear an American voice if I am in a mall I should run?

Do you mean I should not marry a Muslim (or an American) because I will become the victim of violence?