seriously Imperator, Even among poorer/less educated Muslims I have met there is not a general acceptance of this kind of thing. Those who believe it can be justified are outside the norm. Although its certainly true that 'subcultures' can form in communities - although this is not unique to Islam. You can see that in religious sects int he US that isolate themselves from others - as well as in other places.

NOW may be important int he US - but they are pretty invisible in other parts of the world. Their 'sisters' include many women through women's groups, NGO's and an range of organisations that also are opposed to violence against women in all its forms. A couple of years ago Amnesty highlighted this issue (violence against women, including honour killings), and its been an ongoing concern to them.

They get plenty of support.

you take a few isolated cases and assume that there is predominant support for this practice? thats generalizing.

I posted several pages ago a whole lot of links that address honour killing which includes examples of non Muslim honour killing.

There may well be SOME - and I fear this is more likely as there has been some rise in fundamentalist Islam, but it is far less likely as it is not a practise that has ever been common in SEA.

culturally, Indonesia is quite different - Islam is mixed with the local culture, and in Bali - the Hinduism is a different variety than in India - actually, even in India there are many varieties of Hinduism.

OK

OK. I agree - we are just discussing. And I think that it is an important topic. Unfortunately violence against women is a topic most men ignore. It should be discussed.

Would you call a compound that contains 0.000833% NaCl salt ? Would you call something that has an incidence of 0.000833% a characteristic of a culture/religion/whatever ?
It's as simple as that.

You are, by a factor of 12,000.

No , they're not: 30 / 3600000 = 0.00000833 = 0.000833 %
The 3.6 M is explained in a footnote in a previous post.

__________________
"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

.I don't want to know from where you pulled that number. Yet you still haven't provided support for your claim that I am generaliszing...the question, in case you missed it.
Nope. It's 0.00083%. Two sig figs, regardless of your foot note. 30 has two sf, and 3600000 has two sig figs (your foot note). Even if the population had more sig figs, your answer cannot have more sig figs than the least number of one of the multiplands, otherwise your act of multiplication/division adds accuracy - that won't happen.

sigfig

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

You've certainly earned the title of Dodge of the Year now.

Question corrected for pedantry:

Would you call a compound that contains 0.00083% NaCl salt ? Would you call something that has an incidence of 0.00083% a characteristic of a culture/religion/whatever ?

__________________
"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

Hard to say. NaCl is a compound in and of itself. Since your question is inaccurate on its face, I would call it an impure mixture. What you dismiss as pedantry has lead to great loss of life in disasters because of incorrect sig figs.
Even before seeing valid sources, I would call it too much. But, if you want to believe that there have only been three honor killings by Muslims in Noth America, OK. It's still too much.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

May I ask you a final time to address the actual issue of which you are well aware ? Further dodging I will interpret as a concession and as a confirmation that I know all I needed to know about you as a poster.

__________________
"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

Ever hear of a typo? An honest mistake considering that I am more use to spelling gentile than gentle; I do debate Jewish Supremacists/Zionists etc...quite frequently Daisym.

However, thank you for asking me to clarify my terminology before making a judgment.

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out her second to last point in post #140. I have often noticed when one is in a emotional state, reason goes out the window and no support is necessary because *stamp your feet* "I am just right, so shut up and let me call you another name!!!!!!" Very classy.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

What didn't I answer?

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Well first I wish to tell Daisym; that is Mr. Anti-Semite to you dear! That anti-semitism crap may work as a cross works on a Vampire with the average westerner but it does not work that way on me!

The second thing I would like to ask is does anyone have any statistics on the number of Muslims incarcerated for violent offenses in comparison to non-Muslims in whatever western nation you live. In addition what is the percentage differences in population when factoring in these prisoner comparisons.

This may answer more questions that some philosophical religious discussion about honour killings...

OK - well I thought I was. Its not 'Americanness' that caused these killings at all. there may be aspects of the culture that make violence more likely to occur - but I don't think this is part of being an American.

post #140 was your post.

I realised that 'gentile' was a typo - or perhaps a Freudian slip.

However - I fail to see the point as I can't imagine that sharks are likely to kill members of their own family (however sharks might define family) on the basis of cultural or other ideologies.

How astute. Now the second to last point I addressed in MY post where you made some claim about a post I made in some thread, you haven't addressed, as I said. Rather you freely sling that moniker of bigot in favor of discussion and ignore any attempt at reaching an understanding.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

In the disappeared thread re Brett Golden and his alleged criminal activities, several posters said something about his comments making them almost ashamed to be white. I made a comment, that one good thing that came from having the likes of BG on the forum, was that now perhaps people might know how Muslims might feel (WRT all being tarred with the same brush due to the activity/view of a minority).

You made a comment re Muslims didn't speak out about that. I commented that they did and invited you to PM me if you wanted some examples.

You did so, and I sent you several links.

In that thread - as you acknowledged - your comment was a little off topic - however you still couldn't resist the opportunity to have a dig at muslims.

You have also done it elsewhere.

You never miss an opportunity to bash Muslims, but you are play innocent.

Sorry lady, you've been called out - and this thread is strong evidence that either you really don't care about violence against women, and are using the topic as another opportunity to bash Muslims - or you are such a prima donna that you think you want to become the focus of my attention, and that of WOI.

If this is the case, get over it. I am far more interested in this topic than being sidetracked by your 'look at me, look at me' posts, while you continue to ignore the real issues I have raised.

Incidentally, I found the exchange above where you seem to think culture can be measured in the same way as chemical compounds quite bizarre.

Frank's point re religion of perpetrators of violence is very interesting - and I don't know the answers. I can only gather, from local knowledge, that Muslims IN GENERAL are less represented among those convicted of violent crimes in this state.

However, the majority of violent crimes involve drugs or alcohol (this is especially true of crimes against partners/family members - substance abuse is one of the most likely indicators of the likelihood of family violence). If you take out violent crimes where the perpetrator is either under the influence of substances, or is known to be an abuser, the figures may be quite different.

I can't say - however based on my experience with immigrant communities - I don't think Muslims would be more significantly represented among perpetrators than members of other immigrant groups, however both immigrant groups MAY be more represented among those who engage in family violence, excluding sexual abuse of children in the family, which, based on what I know, appears more predominant in other populations.

I do not know if this can be extrapolated to the US, Canada or anywhere else - and also - I haven't researched it.

I do think it would be a very interesting research topic however, and would be very worthwhile.

Good thinking Frank.