Originally Posted by Speakeasy

Yea, I figured you would. ...

Originally Posted by Speakeasy

I was more pointing it towards the people on the other side of the argument.

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

There isn't anyone on 'the other side of the argument'. Nobody here is saying how cool honour kilings are.

Originally Posted by Americano

I guess I shouldn't be surprised how some Americans can condemn what are certainly isolated cultural incidents in other countries yet approve of collateral damage killing hundreds and thousands of women in those same countries in the name of ideology.

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

There isn't anyone on 'the other side of the argument'. Nobody here is saying how cool honour kilings are.

There are those though that have the global perspective and knowledge to recognize that these things are not part of any broad culture or religion but are an aspect of various (small) subcultures. The nature of those subcultures varies along many lines. The one common factor is simply that the subculture puts 'honour' above everything else, including life.

This is indeed the case in some Islamic subcultures, but the simple fact that it isn't the case for all Islamic subcultures negates the idea it's inherently related to it. The IRA-UDF kilings are not Christian either.

Other subcultures where this issue is present have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, e.g. Southern Italy, the extreme right (cf. Blood & Honour), many military subcultures, etc.

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Yeah, it's not much different from those who go out of their way to introduce a ham-handed segue from almost any topic to the War, huh?

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

Yeps. Southern Italy Camorra country. Very religious but not Islamic. Hint, hint.

Feel free to deposit the 50$ with Crystal or OSB for my account.

Originally Posted by chassisman

From what i found, the Italain honor killings are of a different recipe than the ME kind. ME honor killings usually revolve around infidelity, or adoption of western or unacceptable culture. The Itialin thing seems to be a by product of organized crime. Oh well........... dead is dead, right?

Originally Posted by Wisdom_Seeker

Exactly!!

Straight away I knew that its another bash at Muslims and most of them dont understand Honour Killings. If you are from the UK you would be more knowledgeable about it since they are introducing laws and the media gave it alot of attention.

I already wrote about Women Rights in Islam in a number of posts, in comparison with how women were treated in the Dark Ages and Medieval Europe. There was a long program in British TV on Moorish Spain and what the Moors (Muslims of Andalusia) brought to Europe. The Muslim woman had the right to inherit property way before the European woman.

These are the rights of women that Islam protected and upheld:

1. The right and duty to obtain education.

2. The right to have their own independent property.

3. The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.

4. Equality of reward for equal deeds.

5. The right to express their opinion and be heard.

6. The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.

7. The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

8. The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him. (pls note that God deeply frowns upon divorce as a solution unless there is hardly any other alternative but it does not mean that men have more right to divorce their wives than women do.)

9. The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).

10. The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

11. custody of their children after divorce.

12. to refuse any marriage that does not please them

and more...


And when did the western woman get her rights? Infact till today she is still fighting for her rights. And the West continues to humiliates her and degrade her... it made a whole industry out of humiliating her (the porn industry) .... prositution is openly acceptable where as in Muslim countries the government pays her financial needs until she is able to support herself. The rapist is killed in Islam and the raped woman gets full protection of the law... in the west he gets a prison sentence. Also, see how the big corporations and businesses use and abuse women for monetary gains, every single advert must have a woman, semi nakid, holdin a product etc.

There are many examples, the film industry and how she has to sleep with 10,000 directors before she gets a role in a movie and in the movie she still has to sleep with a few actors. They call it art, friggin degrading. The fashion industry, jeez, the clothes seem to cover alot less these days... ah yeah... the designers all happen to be MEN. .. Yves Saint Lauran, Gucci, Paul Smith, Georgio Armani, Ralph Lauren, ... etc... and those poor models are killing themselves with anorexia to get a friggin job.

What about in the work place. Till today, women in the UK (I know this for a fact cos am from there) the women still fightin for the right to be paid the same as their male colleagues for doing the same jobs.

The islamophobic media concentrates on the tiny minority who indulge in corrupt cultural practices and call it Islam.

Islam came and gave the woman status and rights, it protects her honour and wrapped her with dignity and respect.

WS.

Originally Posted by Americano

Different cultural circumstances, same end result.

Originally Posted by chassisman

OK, here's the dollar-fifty question...................Do anyone know of any other culture where people engage in "honor killings"? ( other than murderous middle eastern culture)

Originally Posted by Speakeasy

Like most people, I am concerned how certain Muslim countries allow people to be pardoned for these crimes. The United States could certainly stop aiding countries that have these laws, or at least put a lot more pressure on them to change these laws. While I'm no fan of the US exerting pressure on foreign countries to change their own laws, I think this is one of the few cases that warrants it.

Originally Posted by Americano

US military philosophy falls under that honor definition. Death before dishonor also includes the Crips, Bloods and other US sub-cultures ignored in this thread.

Originally Posted by chassisman

Evidently, the Italian honor killings are of a different recipe than the ME kind. ME honor killings usually revolve around infidelity, or adoption of western or unacceptable culture. The Itialin thing seems to be a by product of organized crime. Oh well........... dead is dead, right?