Does this clarify?Yes, there is the expected implication to which I alluded earlier that one is a bigot because they have "countries of whom [sic] I hate the people." No, my error which is not too hard to deduce as Speakeasy provided a list of majority Muslim countries where pardons exist for honor killings. But, I challenge you to back up your implication that I am one who hates the people of those countries.

Here are some other passages with respect to stoning: They seem quite obsessed with sex.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Yes, it's a younger religion started in more modern times and this is THE modern world. (BTW, I didn't forget. )

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

No need to get testy. I'm just pointing out that the idea that Islam has a inherit violent streak that is unique and sets it apart form other religions or their histories is just not true. They cherry pick things about either The Koran or Islamic cultures and ignore others and also ignore similar historical circumstances in other religions and violent passages in their holy books. I'm not ignoring the fact that terrorism is a real problem and that certain groups (which are small minorities compared with the whole of Islam) are violent and must be worked against. My problem is with the idea that Islam is uniquely violent apart from other mainstream religions.

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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

No, I already read that.
Islam stretches from Indonesia to Senegal and from Ethiopia to Kazakhstan. When you say that 'Naturally their culture and religious practices are tied' you're implying that there is a uniformity in culture for the totality of the aforementioned regions. Quod non of course. Does the evangelical US have the same culture as Catholic Poland ? I think not. The same is just as true for Islam.

When you're attributing the actions of the few to over a billion people, it may not be bigoted (your word) but it's certainly not rational.
I wonder how you would react when Christianity were treated like this, I really do.

Those are not from the Qur'an, but apparently (you didn't provide a source) from the Sahih Bukhari, a set of hadith that are not common to all of Islam.

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"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

The definitions I posted did not specify any unifromity of cultures. That was clear. Yet culture is tied closely with religion, by definition. A culture in Morroco will have their cultures tied in religion differently than the culture of Jordan tie with thie religion. The deefinitions did not specify same cultures., but the religion is the common connector.


It is as rational as comparing curret hate crimes (3 murders in 2006 : Incidents--Hate Crime Statistics, 2006) to these honor killings in North America in the present day in this hemisphere (three in the last month). It works for us, thus your word [ir]rational does not apply.

Why would you ask? I have at least one post about that in an earlier post. But, my reaction about these incicents has me outraged for many reasons: These are violent crimes again lovely young ladies. It you believe that doesn't affect my connection to the victims via one of the groups with whom I relate and identify, I respectfully assure you are mistaken. However, if any Christian man (oops, does that mean I am a bigot against Christians since I mentioned his religion ) murdered his daughter for failing to wear modest or Christian clothes (whatever thet are), then he killed them beause of that, I would be just as ourtaged - maybe even moreso. Does ths answer ease your wonder?

Yes, It's common to sunni, a muslim sect.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Aww look at Si modo trying very hard. I bet he is thinking " What are these idiots sayin, what do they know,...err... there HAS to be a connection between these corrupted aspects of their culture and their religious practices and I AM going to find it"

Si modo, you have failed to stick this one to Islam and your ignorance has shined on the issue of Honour Killings. Like many here have spotted, you and your kind have a problem with Islam and Muslims and not Honour Killings. Same applies to your other posts in the War/Peace section. If you're not careful, this paranoia will continue and soon you will start to blame Islam for your personal problems at home

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

Somebody mentioned 'honour killing' in Palestine. You are right. unfortunately this is on the rise. In fact, in general, violence against women tends to be on the rise wherever conflict/tensions occur.

Family Violence against women in Israel has also risen in recent years. This is a clear sign that the stresses of living under the current situation is taking its toll.

This link gives some background as to why honour killings are on the rise in Iraq: http://www.stophonourkillings.com/in...ticle&sid=1667

I should mention that my friends teenaged daughters (who lived in Baghdad) had never worn hijab until after the US occupation. Prior to that they were safe to go to school or university without their heads uncovered. After a couple of years of US occupation, it was dangerous to leave the home without a head covering.

So called 'honour killings' are certainly not unique to Islam. I have said my piece before - so I've just grabbed a few pieces that may give a broader perspective on the issue for those who are GENUINELY interested rather than just using this topic as another excuse to bash Islam.

13 Martyrs: The myth of Muslim honor killings

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/in...print&sid=1143

http://stophonourkillings.com/index....ticle&sid=2230

'Honour killing' casts medieval shadow over India | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited

Love, honour and obey - or die | International | The Observer

'Honour killing' by UK Sikh family-UK-World-The Times of India

Honour Killings « The UK Enrichment News

The Hindu : Front Page : Father held for `honour killing'

The Hindu : Victims of 'honour killings' recall horror

Honour killings on the rise in India: Women's group : HindustanTimes.com

SpringerLink - Journal Article

CIMEL and INTERIGHTS 'Honour' Crimes Project: Publication_Abstracts - these abstracts in particular might have some interesting insights:

Honour, Culture and Alliances
Purna Sen

'Crimes of Honour' in the Italian Penal Code: An Analysis of History and Reform
Maria Gabriella Bettiga-Boukerbout

Most material I have seen indicates that even in quite patriarchal societies so called 'honour killing' is not the norm - but that it does occur virtually everywhere. It is an extreme version of the view that a father has the right to control his children's lives.

These killings also occur when a wife wishes to divorce her husband in some cases. Those who believe a father has ultimate control over his children often also believe a man should have complete control over his wife.

In the US, (and most other western countries) the most common form of 'honour killing' is when a wife leaves, or threatens to leave, a violent husband. Often, if the perpetrator cannot get to the woman, he will kill the children.

Until relatively recently 'crimes of passion,' where the victim was a wife/girlfriend, earned lighter sentences than did other murders. And its not that long ago that police 'did not interfere in domestic affairs' between a man and a female partner. I've known of people who died because of this attitude. And this is in so called 'civilized' western countries.

Some people think Muslims just mumble something and avoid it - but in Britain this isn't the case: BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings,

and as I said in my previous post - its not the case here. In fact, if more western men were as proactive in trying to address the issue of family violence among their friends, families and colleagues - I think many more women would be safer in their own homes in our communities.

here is a link to an Islamic perspective on honour killing:

Fatwa: Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective

Those who think Muslims should have to jump up and defend their faith every time someone abuses it, perhaps might think how they would like to be constantly expected to defend whatever group/religion/nation they belong to ALL the time.

dilettante

It was sick what happened. But that's Shariah law for you. Of course it's cultural. As many second-generation muslims over here start thinking for themselves and begin to value personal liberty, especially the women, they will be in danger of the old guard.

I love my city of Toronto, but I still get frustrated when I see those women in the beekeeper suits. They're supposed to cover their hair. This idea that you either don't even see them or you see a little slit where their eyes are is not part of any tradition. That is very recent in their culture and we say nothing about it.

We live in the melting pot....and they need to melt a little.

that is true imperator. And I agree with you and Si Modo. I don't know what NOW are up to these days (we don't hear about them) but I wouldn't be surprised if an issue like this is under the radar for them. Not big enough. not important enough ... and not part of their current agenda.

I think its important that this issue IS raised, and put out there - for all to think about. And I thank you for starting this thread.

well - its true that of the approx 5000 'honour killings' that occur globally each year, 1,000 are in Pakistan. It is also true that many others occur in the Muslim world - but significant numbers also occur in other South Asian countries, non Muslim African states, and variations of 'honour killing' occur throughout Asia, and the rest of the world.

So no - these killings are not necessarily related to a specific religious group - and in its normal, everyday form, Muslims are not really any more likely to kill their daughters than Jews are likely to bash women who sit on the wrong seat on the bus.

It is true that patriarchal values - which include viewing women as inferior - even as chattels - makes it more likely that these events can occur - yet in traditional villages they did not occur that frequently. They are more likely to occur when there is conflict/change and traditional values are being challenged.

Incidentally, technicially speaking, the man who murders his estranged wife is committing the same crime - it is his 'honour' that has been impinged by her leaving him.

there is some truth in some of what you say. Interestingly, Egyptian feminism was more powerful than English feminism at the turn of the 20th century. It was quashed by English Colonialists - not by Islam. Wahhabism was encouraged by the English, who could see that the dominance of a more aggressive version of the faith would be beneficial to them. The Partition of India was a tragedy for South Asia - and most likely was one of the turning points which created a particularly medieval form of Islam. The British, as we all know, had a major role to play there as well.

I think many of the problems we see in the middle east really date from the Sykes Picot agreement - the legacy of which has influenced a 'culture of honour' within the Arab psyche.

If we look at Iran - the CIA Backed coup in 1953 that installed the Shah was the feeding ground for Islamist fundamentalism. We can't get around that. We do understand, of course, that nationalized oil under Mossadeq would have been unthinkable - but would it really have been worse, for the west, than what came after the Shah?

well - I'm not really so sure. As I said - I have worked with several Muslim communities. For the most part these people don't subscribe to extremist practices. I do know some quite 'fundamentalist' Muslims as well - and yet even they have participated in seminars and workshops promoting education about the law.

I do agree that among young Muslims there is a serious risk of being attracted to the darker side of Islam - possibly even terrorism - and this is in fact more likely the more they see Muslim bashing in the media, or in their community .... but these are not usually the people you need to worry about murdering their sisters.

The cases of family violence I am most familiar with do not involve people who think much about religion. They WILL try to use religion to justify their actions, but the reality is that the prime cause of their action comes from their own sense of failure, inadequacy, etc. Not from their faith. The issue of a girl being strangled for not wearing hijab - well really I don't think hijab was the issue at all. It might be the catalyst for the attack - but most likely it was the father's fear of losing control, of not being 'man enough' to keep his family in line with old traditions. His Muslim neighbours (in general) would be no more supportive of him killing his daughter on the basis of his religion than you would be if your neighbour shot his wife because she was leaving him ....

although it is possible that some may feel that such an act was justified - because a daughter should not defy her father ..... (although they probably wouldn't say so)

just as some of your neighbours might think 'the bitch deserved what she got for trying to walk out on him' (although they, too, probably wouldn't say so).

I don't know how I can be more clear than that.

when was the last time you spoke out about white western men bashing/stalking/murdering their ex wives?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot - just to get you to think.

You don't have to apologize or speak out about aberrant behaviur in your own community (although maybe it would make a difference if more people did) - so why do you expect Muslims to speak out against aberrant behaviour in theirs?

think about it. even if all 5000 honour killings per year were perpetrated by Muslims. There are 1 billion Muslims ..... do you think they should even then - be expected to speak out about it?

lets see - there are 11000 gun murders per year in the US - population around 300 million ..... do you think I would be justified if - every time I spoke to an American - I asked - so tell me - what are YOU doing about all those gun murders in your country?

what do you think?

[emphasis mine] Even with your self-defined knowledge, you remain ignorant in even the basics. Some muslims can't accept some basic facts.

There is no need from me to find that connection. I posted it. Your willfull blindness allows you to choose to be comfy in your ignorance.

Both families were Muslim. Put that in your hookah and smoke it. As Both families are Muslim. And as I have suspected that you do not thoroughly read the theads, yes your ignorance shines quite well - so much that it is capable of lighting up Las Vegas for a month.
[emphasis eine] I see what you are still tryig to label me "and my kind" as bigots. In doing so, you have allowed all to see what a weak debater your are; you have also allowed all to see your lack iof logic.
Please enlighten us and for all to see wow these are not honor killings?

If you wish to bring in my quotes from that other thread of which you speak, please do. Of couse, if you don't, I will. Idle threats are meanless if one has no spine. FYI, I don't make idle threats.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition