A quick look indicates the information is at best incomplete.

In 1300, the state of Christianity was fragmented and was running up to the plethora of religious wars in Europe which characterized many conflicts in the 14-16th centuries....of course a lot of these wars were also driven by dynastic differences among the empires/nations extent, and those growing into such......

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Obama-e fungis nati homines....

And what about the treatment of women in Christianity at that time?

That's roughly 35% of the time of Christianity.

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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Personal, disposable property.

In a legal sense its true that women were vastly inferior - however most likely - when it came down to communities, the reality was that many women were respected. Which is pretty much what you find amongst most ordinary Muslims today, living lives in conditions where life is 'normal,' and not marred by social conflict, etc.

There were instances (very few) of women reaching pinnacles of influence, but we don't hear that much about the women who stand out in history, because they were women. (if anyone is interested in athread on women in history we could look at that).

We could look a little later - why did Elizabeth I of England not marry? To do so would have made her subject to her husband. Her cousin, Mary of Scotland, even though a queen, was raped by her husband - and had no recourse to the law. I'm using English examples here - but people from other European traditions could no doubt find more 'local' examples.

But apart from queens and nobles - what do we know about women from this era?

Legally, their position was inferior to that of women in Islam. As today in many parts of the world, most of those displaced and suffering the consequences of war, famine etc were women and children. And we did not yet have the 'pedestal' of womanhood (except perhaps for nobles) to protect women from the most vicious attacks - including rape and mutilation.

The reformation brought great distress to many women. In Catholicism, unwed women could go to the convent. Noble families would pay the church a 'dowry' (as they would to her husband) and these women were able to remain part of a community. Poor women could also join the convent - usually to labour in the fields, the kitchens etc. Convents gave women who could not find husbands (quite common in those days - with wars etc) a place in society.

That was taken away under protestantism.

The enclosure movement also brought great distress to women. Many men deserted wives and families and headed to the cities in search of a living, unburdened by responsibility. For women with children this was not so easy. The enclosure movement brought great impoverishment to rural peasants, but for women and children the impact was far greater than that felt by men.

During this period also the incidence of vioence against women increasd dramatically. And there was no place for women who did not obey strict laws/moral edicts on what a good woman should be.


So - here we are - only 200 years ago ths was happening - thats about 500 years in the future for Islam ....

maybe its not so good to be comparing Islam and Christianity WRT treatment of women in terms of how long the religion has been around ...

If we do that Christians come out looking like slow learners.

I considered it a brief overview. Anyone that couldn't draw a conclusion based on that overview either disputes it's accuracy , or has one hell of a set of blinders on.

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Are you a spineless slave to political correctness?

I looked at it, and based on what I know about the subject I maintain it is incomplete.

To start with - if you look at other sources on honour killing, the figure (5,000) includes 'honour killing' in Latin American communities, in some other more traditional Asian, African and European communities, as well as some actions by 'westerners.'

Other sources also talk about lighter sentences for 'crimes of passion.'

I think wikipedia can be a good introductory source - but thats all. On this subject it exposes the author as having cultural blinders - to some extent.

For the record - if we look at US data - there has been a downward trend in spouse murders (female victims) since a move away from the kind of defence that allowed a lighter sentence for homicide of an intimate female partner - the 'crimes of passion' argument.

Unfortunately however there has been an increase in the number of white girls being murdered by boyfriends between 1976 - 2005. I have the data somewhere - but not at my fingertips. I will provide a source later if you require.

You're arguing from the assumption that religion is the single most determinant factor in culture. I'd like to see you prove that. The disjointed nature of the locations with this kind of laws indicates that local politics supersede the influence of what communality there may be in religious affairs. See also below for the breakdown of Sunnism.

You've lost me here. The analogy in this context would be that I would extrapolate the motivations for these hate crimes to all Americans, as that's what you do towards Muslims.

I wasn't talking about the nature of the crimes or your outrage, but about your extrapolation of the motives of an individual to any arbitrary group he might belong to. Should I extrapolate the motivations of mall-mass-murderers to all Americans or Christians (when they are)?

Ok. We're narrowing it down a bit. Now, how many Sunni's interprete the Qur'an literally ?

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"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

Your telling me I have ignorance is rich, especially when you claim that I am ignorant by claiming that I haven't any idea how to tell the difference between culture and religion. Please try to read the complete thread before posting. When you don't, let's see you and WS continue to use that word that you and WS are so fond of...ignorant.

Calling others' ignorant is lacking any intelligent tact. When faced with a post that is rampant in claims of ignorance, both of you can bet that I will respond in kind.

And your false claim that I don't know the difference betweem a Muslim and Islam is further evidence of your desparation.

However, trying to divert this topic toward claims that so many are ignorant does nothing the divert from the fact that these three young ladies were murderd by their Muslim father (and in one case, aided by a Muslim brother). The survivors of these two families are Muslim, with only two of the ramaining family members not facing obstruction and assessory to murder. Muslims, both victims and criminals, all of them in these two cases within the last month.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I believe in this instance you have displayed ignorance. As WOI's post above states - you have been arguing from the assumption that religion is the single most determinant factor in culture.

If this is so - how do you account for so many differences across the Muslim world?

If this is so - how do you account for the fact that Ethiopian Copts and Sudanese Muslims have far more in common than Sudanese Muslims and Indoensian Muslims?

How do you account for the fact that Mauritian Muslims celebrate Chinese New Year, and intermarry with Hindus and Christians with no penalty enacted by anyone in the community?

Or - to get away from Islam - how do you account for differences in attitude to 'cultural practices' between Southern Italian Catholics and Australian Catholics?

I would suggest you read my posts on this thread before commenting further on what I have said.

on other threads you have called me out for commenting on areas which you believed you had more expertise on than I did, and you were extremely rude. It would not therefore surprise me if you resorted to a similar tactic on this thread. However, despite your low opinion of the social sciences, people who have knowledge and who have worked in fields related to cultural issues DO have far more knowledge than you in this area.

The links you posted show a particular point of view. We can all be selective in how we present information.

It is certainly true that there are Muslims who carry out 'honour killings' - but it is not true that this is widely accepted in most communities. Nor is it true that it is unique to Islam.

Try to get over your distaste of Islam for once, and focus on the issue that violence against women is not religious - it is global.

And yes Si Modo - NOW should be getting off their high horse and raising awareness of these killings. Otherwise they should bloody well change their name to National Organisation for some women. who agree with us. and we like.

[Emphasis mime] Incorrect – I challenge you to find where I have used the word “single” with respect to this issue– nice strawman. But, to allow my words to speak for themselves rather than your interpretations speak for me, I post it YET again. [Emphasis mine]

si modo:

Quote:

Naturally their culture and religious practices are tied.

Naturally their culture and religious practices are tied.

Daisy: …, and focus on the issue that violence against women is not religious - it is global….[/quote]Yes, there is violence against women it the world, but this thread focuses of the smal, small, Muslim men (and bothers) who kill their daughers in this hemisphere for trivail reasons.

Daisy: Agreed.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Yes, there is violence against women it the world, but this thread focuses of the smal, small, Muslim men (amd bothers) who kill their daughers in this hemisphere for trivail reasons.Agreed.[/quote]

I'm sorry Si Modo - I can't see where this post is going, so I find it difficult to respond to.

Yep, that is one of the points. Another, is the fact that NOW completely ignores it. NOW is a joke and, the Muslm men who are exposed to western ways, need to make a choise to stay here and suck it up or go back to a counry where they well be happier actng as the barbaric cavenen they are.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them, speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition