And after being banned on you tube etc...very enlightening. Apparently knee jerk censorship is picking up steam. Muslim activists have learned the secret, yell loud and long enough play the aggrieved party and viola'. Their grievance becomes more important than others grievances.

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Your link isn't working.

It is for me. Maybe go to the Live Link site and search "Fitna the Movie: Geert Wilders' film about the Quran (English)" or any shorter phrases involved in its title.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Wow, you actually managed to come up with a sensible post Ajax, well done!

Seriously? If you read the Old Testament, God kicks a ton of ass, to say nothing of what he encourages his faithful to do. It's like reading the Godfather.

Off the top of my head from reading the Bible and Sunday school, I remember that God decides to execute a bunch of Egyptian children and rain plagues down upon them. I remember that God decides to drown just about every man woman, child (born and unborn), and animal on the planet because he's feeling a little salty. God allows the torture of a true believer (Job) to settle a gentleman's bet with Satan.

I also remember a lot of verses about what ought to be done to whom. Anyone setting foot on Mt. Sinai is to be stoned to death. I think it's Exodus where God tells Levi, Moses, etc to go slaughter a bunch of people, and then isn't quite satisfied so he unleashes a plague to take care of some more. I'm pretty sure that any adulterers and homosexuals are to be executed on sight, per Leviticus. And, hey, check this out, it doesn't stop there: BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Leviticus 24:16

And, so on.

Now, I'm not attempting to excuse any silliness in the Koran (of which there is plenty). I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't gyp Christians and Jews out of their equal claim to a sadistic, bloodthirsty God.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

There was the slaughter of every man woman and child living in Jericho among other things.

If Christianity were so inclined it could easily be as bad as some sects of Muslims are.

I went ahead and looked up the verses from the video because I know how people love to take such verses out of context, more so in the case of the terrorists than the director of this video.

Here is the actual text of 8:60

And make ready for them whatever force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you know not — Allah knows them. And whatever you spend in Allah’s way, it will be paid back to you fully and you will not be wronged.

The footnotes state that the verse is simply referring to common tactics of war. I looked up the word that the director translated as terror (which above says frighten) and the literal translation comes out to "threaten." The verse is clearly stating that god is commanding his followers to simply display a show of strength, not to actively go ahead and terrorize people (which would clearly violate the clauses of war that stipulate strict punishment for harming not only innocents, but also trees and animals).

On to 8:61

And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely He is the Hearer, the Knower.

Wonder why the author wanted to leave that little bit out.


Next up on the list is 4:56.

Those who disbelieve in Our Messages, We shall make them enter Fire. As often as their skins are burned, We shall change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Surely Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

Looking at the surrounding context, this verse is simply stating that those who disbelieve will end up in Hell. Not unlike what we find in other religions, so this verse isn't exactly something that is unique to Islam. The very next verse actually speaks of Heaven for believers. Again, simple religious reward/punishment system found in many other religions.


I could go on with the rest of the verses and how they were taken out of context, but I'm fairly certain most of you guys are savvy enough to find this on your own.

However, I still do not like the notion of violence in religion. It just seems antithetical to have a "bow before me or burn in hell" core message. Regardless of what moderate Muslims tell you, there is a very real violent streak in the Quran, and it really unsettled me that a religion whose very name indicates peace would at the same time depict such a violent deity. But then again, the Old Testament isn't exactly peachy either. Perhaps that's why I dislike all Semitic religion, too much tribal influenced violence incorporated into the texts.

Islam is no worse as a religion than Christianity or Judaism. It's the followers who have perverted the message of Islam that I worry about. We shouldn't fear so much Muslims as we should Islamists, who take the violent verses out of context and indoctrinate young disillusioned boys into tools they can manipulate as they please. In other words, what we're seeing today is similar to the misled Crusaders. The core fault lies in ignorance, for ignorance breeds violence. How to solve fundamentalism? Education.

We'll see what happens. The video seems to aim for a heated response from Muslims, given that a very one-sided fifteen minute video is more propaganda than educational. Everyone knew the airing of this video would create a dangerous situation; that certainly doesn't mean it should be banned, but it makes me question what sort of value Wilder attaches to free speech. He doesn't seem to aiming to create an exchange of ideas or understanding different perspectives. He's using his freedom to provoke and enflame, it seems.

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No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

threads merged.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Of course, Islam is no worse than the other Abrahamic religions, but that's not a good thing. Have you read the Bible? The real perversions of these religions are the peaceful, non homophobic and non misogynistic versions. Those objecting to these films need to realise that allowing other people freedom to offend and live as they please is the price they must pay for their own freedom to do so. They also need to use this as a way to take a long hard look at their religion. I have not seen this latest film, but their was nothing inaccurate about van Gogh's film. The defensive feeling and attempts to intimidate people into censoring anti Islam films implies they do not believe the fauth could withstand an objective view.

Interesting. I wonder about the contexts and translations of the speeches made as well. This language barrier gives leaders and media a huge ability to manipulate words and intentions.

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

threads merged.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Which wouldn't be an issue if some people would stop embracing barbarism and start acting in a more civilized manner. I'd like to point out that that whenever a person does something that Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, or Atheists don't like you rarely hear any calls for their assassination. Even when such things come up those individuals are usually scorned.

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Is our children learning? -George W. Bush

"I think—tide turning—see, as I remember—I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of—it's easy to see a tide turn—did I say those words?"—Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006

"[T]he illiteracy level of our children are appalling."—Washington, D.C., Jan. 23, 2004

I watched the film, it was only 10 1/2 mins long, and found it to be very compelling and moving. If Muslims are offended by this they should speak out against the violent acts committed in the name of Islam. But for some reason, the so-called "moderate" Muslims are relatively silent.

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I think at this point there needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending and I think this is a time when deficit fear has to take a second seat . . . I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money."
-- Barney Frank, October 20, 2008

The queston is are there moderate muslims ?


stirring the pot.

I dont think so since they never go on tv and speak. All we see is Cair etc calling racism

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Hardcore Conservative !

I said Conservative not necessarly Republican or Democrat. Liberals are in both of those parties.