Here we go again, instead of the markets being allowed to run their natural course, we have politicians trying to play God.
PolitiByte - Political forums, news, opinions, and information. - Economic Stimulus Package: Rebate or Welfare?

No one wants a recession, but, every market has its peaks and valleys. Remember the crash of 1987, that was followed by one of the biggest run ups in history. Who is to say a recession now would not be a great buying opportunity?

Four weeks ago the Democrats were complaining that Bush has spent us into bankruptcy with the war in Iraq. Now all of a sudden we can come up with $150 billion to spark the economy? Where is this money going to come from? I thought we were broke?

Wake up America. Politicians are spending your money in order to get themselves elected. Doesn't everyone see the hypocrisy of this?

Want real stimulus, make the tax cuts permanant.

__________________

I think they would have done better by reforming welfare, as we know it.

A single tax rebate won't do much for the economy, but does illustrate the lack of desire to actually fix a known problem. By replacing welfare, as we know it, with a form of at-will "unemployment insurance", poverty, as we know it could also be ended.

Having a metric of "zero" percent official poverty would do more to increase our standard of living than any single tax rebate or permanent tax cut while running massive deficits.

I'd say the money would be better spent on the education system.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

This makes an utterly unsupported presumption that more money into our education system would yield any improvement in the quality of the output.

We spend more per student adjusted for inflation than 50 years ago, has the overall quality improved?

Public education, like alot of government run programs, has become top heavy and bloated. When my father attended highschool, there were 1,200 students in his school. They had a principal, a vice principal, two administrative secretaries, and a guidance couselor. When I went to highschool, with a student body of 1,000 we had a principal, THREE vice principals, SIX full time secretaries, and FOUR guidance counselors. Bloat.

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

As someone who has worked in education, I think you'd be surprised at how much I agree with you.

However, I think that the ideal solution is a combination of increased spending (not immediately) along with a HUGE increase in the efficiency of the school system. So much money is wasted in administration it just boggles my mind.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I think we could actually get far better educational outcomes with LESS money spent once you eliminate the waste and inefficiency, AND get back to some of the tried and true methods of teaching.

BTW, did anyone here the one of the Congressmen holler to Bush as he was leaving the State of the Union "how can you give a rebate to someone who didn't put in any bate?" Priceless!

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

I didn't watch the State of the Union; I was in class. I'd have LOVED to have seen that, though!



As far as funding in education goes, I see education as the key for making sure that the US is the envy of every other nation for the next 100 years. We need to make sure that our students are receiving the highest quality education that is possible, especially in math and science. Not drones who memorize and regurgitate, but real thinking people who have an excellent understanding of how the world works, whether it's engineering, chemistry, biology, or whatever. The losses we've seen on this front are going to hurt us already, the question is whether or not we'll be mortally wounded.


Sorry for derailing the thread.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

In all endevours there is a point of rapidly diminishing returns, where additional input does not yield sufficiently increased output to be worthy of the additional expense. I believe based on historical outputs and input trends that we are way beyond that point with regard to education funding. More does not neccesarily mean better.

And quite frankly, we should not fund our schools as though each and every student should get "the best", we should fund so that each and every student gets the most APPROPRIATE education. We should not fund skills with the notion that every student will or even should attend college. Quite frankly there is a very large segment of our population who simply lack the intellectual apptitude to succed at what a college ciriculumn should entail.

For most students, we need to simply get back to the basics. Reading, writing, basic arithmetic, and more reliance on vocational training.

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

I see the assumption that America has poor public education and im not necessarily sure where this contention comes from. When compared straight up to European education via test scores and averages of course the Europeans have "better" education. Its a lot easier to educate a homogeneous population than it is to educate a school full of first generation English speakers.

When comparing our education at the University level its pretty lopsided. Something like 60 of the worlds top 100 Universities are American. Whats the difference between our University system and our lower level education system? I would contend the main difference is the quality of student.

I'm surprised at how much we agree.

The school where I taught had originally been a vocational school when it was opened in the late 1800s. But, the schools decided that everyone should desire to go to college, and not dirty their hands with the trades. That was a horrible mistake.

The trick is to make sure that it's not just poor kids that are being funneled into the trade programs (auto mechanics, electrician, plumbing, etc.). Smart kids come from every level.

Interestingly, at the speech I attended last night it was noted that it's much harder for a top 25% high school student who comes from the bottom 25% income level to get into college than it is for a bottom 25% student from the top 25% income level. If that's true, that's a horrifying thought. We're really failing ourselves as a nation.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

There's many differences. Most colleges don't struggle for funding like primary/secondary schools do. I must agree, however, that the quality of student is also an issue. As is the environment. As we re-segregate the schools via the "community school" movement, we'll see these problems continue.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I think this is largely because the overall quality of the primary education received by those groups is unequal, and for reasons TOTALLY other than funding.

Take the District of Columbia, which for many years had among the highest spending per student of the entire nation, yet had the worst overall school system. Clearly not because of underfunding. The fact of the matter was that a diploma or even graduating with honors from schools in the district of columbia simply didn't mean as much in terms of quality of education as a regular old diploma from alot of other schools.

Colleges do not make the faulty assumption that every high schools diploma indicates the same quality as any and every other highschool's diploma.

Most of our social problems in this country with regard to poverty and education stem from the same root cause, out of wedlock birth and single parent families.

I have noted it before and will do so again, three things that are absolutely within the direct control of almost every person in this country that we can do to avoid living a life in poverty:

1. Don't have children until you're married
2. Don't get married until you graduate from highschool (even a crappy one)
3. GRADUATE FROM HIGHSCHOOL (even if its a crappy one)

Add to that, stay away from drugs and alcohol and you will virtually eliminate chronic poverty.

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

I agree with you to an extent. Throwing money at the problem surely won't fix it. It's a fundamental design flaw within the schools.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I agree that the problems will continue but i dont think whether the schools are segregated or not will have any effect on this. My high school was a perfect example of this. (It was actually featured in a documentary on public schools on PBS). It's a minority majority school with the 54% hispanic, mostly poor, students, and 33% white middle class students with the remainder being divided among the rest. Looking at national and state rankings the school is ranked in the bottom 10% in just about every category. However, the separation between my school and other schools in the bottom 10% is that my school ranks in the top 10% of schools with regards to national merit scholars. In fact last year we set a new record for the most national merit scholars from a public school. Given the same opportunities the kids from poorer backgrounds, where there isn't the same sort of pressure to perform academically, they don't. A large part of the problem is cultural and the situations in public schools are perpetuated by that problem not caused by it.

That is why I advocate a form of insurance that could have the effect of ensuring an income to individuals who are not working.

With some form of income, people would be better able to access an education on their own, if need be. This works better for post secondary eduction, and is where it would probably have the most impact. In other words, it would not be necessary to delegate as much authority to the government if people have a safety net of individual economic liberty.