Please point me to your links detailing the 81 countries secret intelligence findings.

Perhaps I missed it, but the only sources I see in your links are the purported findings of US and British intelligence and a summary of UNSCOM inspections which also curiously detail US and British claims.

And from that same link:

In any case, what is publicly released, is ONLY the tip of the iceberg, and often designed to serve a political agenda.

Surely you are not naive enough to believe it's not...

great post

Originally Posted by andy764383
Disinformation from Isreal. Meant for Iranian consumption. Keeps them guessing. Gives goober something to do.

Enough said.

I agree! Bravo

__________________
232 years ago, this is who we were. . .
"A republic, if you can keep it." ~ Benjamin Franklin, upon leaving the Constitutional Convention, in answer to "What have we got?"

232 years later, this is what we have become. . .
http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/war-...a-we-rule.html

The stench of this lie is as strong as the one emenating from Saint Obambi whenever he promises to "cut taxes" or be "strong on defense". I find it remarkable that anyone would believe this obvious bullshit story...well, anyone except Booger and his ilk, who choose to believe whatever confirms their own twisted hateful view of America.

__________________
I think at this point there needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending and I think this is a time when deficit fear has to take a second seat . . . I believe later on there should be tax increases. Speaking personally, I think there are a lot of very rich people out there whom we can tax at a point down the road and recover some of the money."
-- Barney Frank, October 20, 2008

My sincere apologies. My comment referred to your sig not to you personally. As to the comment about being unsolicited you did ask me what I mean't so I told you.

I am assuming your reference to my ignorance refers to my understanding of the difference between patriotism and jingoism (if it's about the words to marching band music then yes, ignorant as charged).

The "bug that is up my butt" goes back to the original line of OT corrections that you felt compelled to add to this thread concerning the location of WMDs in Iraq and the technical justification for invasion.

The argument which you seemed promote was that Coalition of the Willing (my own Country included) were justified in their actions through the location of some old chemical munitions. Rather than just say, we got it wrong on the whole WMD thing but there were still valid reasons to initiate regime change in Iraq and hence we took action.

It is not unpatriotic to question one's own country in fact the ability to do so is probably one of the greatest aspects of a democracy, patriotism shades in to jingoism when that questioning ceases, when the country is no longer viewed as doing things because they're right but that things are right because the country does them.

I thought this forum was an opportunity to discuss such topics in an environment of exploration and discourse without reverting to calling posters ignorant or fools.

The points you raise suggest you are far from ignorant, or a fool. However, the way in which you raise them suggests to me that you fall more towards the jingoistic end of the patriotic spectrum.

Yes, and your original comment was unsolicited.

I am well aware that you were referring to my signature. That is why I provided that link to you so that, if you chose to do so, you could cure your ignorance about my signature. Obviously, you chose not to do so.

Then re-examine my comments. The assertion that the chemicals and weapons were unusable is incorrect. I corrected them. What further extrapolations you wish to apply to my correction of these inaccuracies are up to you, but those are your extrapolations and yours alone.

And I challenge you to demonstrate where I ever mentioned or even suggested that one is unpatriotic for asking questions.

It is. It is also a forum where strawmen will be called out. It is also a forum where inaccuracies are corrected. It is also a forum where unfounded implications about another poster will be challenged.

Again, your input about me personally is unsolicited. I'll thank you to save it.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I was referring to the roughly 50% consensus in NATO that other countries' assessments were correct. 192 countries in the UN, with roughly half in consensus, minus a few to hedge on the side of pessimism - 81 was an estimate. If you'd really like me to, I guess I could spend some time and link a list of the countries that supported the US, British, French, Russian, Australian, German, and Spanish opinion that Iraq still had WMD's, but you could just as easily look that up in NATOs archives yourself.

All you'd really need to do is go back to each of the resolutions passed against Iraq, and look at the states who voted to support them. Read their statements on the matter.

Besides, you've plainly ignored the meat and potatoes of the argument. There were many, many indicators that were valid. Not the least of these was the fact that we and many other countries sold Iraq the very materials we were looking for. With no evidence that those materials had been destroyed, it is very, very safe to assume Saddam still had them.

Are you honestly arguining against that pont?

__________________
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.

~ Plato

It is indeed safe to assume Saddam had the materials. Even if we don't make that assumption (and as matter doesn't simply go away into nonexistence), Iraq was a signatory of the Chemical Weapons Convention. As a signatory state, Iraq was required to account for all compounds and materials with no justifiable dual purpose, whether they still had those compounds and materials in their possession or not. Their failure to properly account for these materials and compounds is a gross violation of the CWC on its face. And, having such a cavalier charge of these compounds and materials in such an unstable state in such an unstable region certainly was (and is) reason for concern.

As the Dutch report about some airstrike on Iran is debunked (or is just dubious at best), I suppose it's OK to continue down this path. If not, the mods will let us know.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I'll say it one more time: It would be the most absolute, rediculous, boneheaded thing for America to attack Iran at this point in time. Not only do we not have the forces needed for something like a true invasion, anything less than an invasion, and our guys in Iraq and Afghanistan would pay a very heavy price. An air raid alone would not be sufficient.

Hell, I believe that even if Isreal carried ouit the attack, the US would be held as a complicit accomplice, and our guys in Iraq and Afghanistan would still pay a heavy price.

And I'm not even going to get into the political/religious side of the arguement in this posting.

Any Admiral/General who agreed to do such a thing should be immediatly relieved of command, and sent to an insane asylum.

.

This is a forum one does not need an invitation to comment

.

I was commenting on the only word YOU added to that fortune cookie poetry, the word tradition. The irony being the only "value" you added actually detracts from the entire schmaltzy gushing anyway.

Agreed. And my extrapolation is that you are being jingoistic in bothering to make such a pedantic point and I will share such extrapolations on this forum unsolicited as it may be.

YOU introduced the word patriotism not me when you stated "Obviously, you believe patriotism is jingoism" I was simply disabusing you of the notion that I don't know the difference between the two words and I will re-state unless you still don't get it - it is your pedantic and somewhat pathetic defense of the WMD excuse for invasion when added to your marching band poetry that I find jingoistic. Not you, YOUR VIEWS! Get it now?

.

You mean like telling me that I believe patriotism and jingoism are the same thing on the basis that I commented on your marching band poetry? or stating I look like a fool because your one word addition to a marching band lyric includes a level of irony? Or the personal attack that I am ignorant about "what bug is up my butt"?

More crap about me, personally. When you wish to discuss the topic or any side topics, let us know.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

I don't believe the article one bit. What Intelligence service or country would divulge information of activities in another nation? Netherlands says yeah we had spies in Iran that were planning a sabotage mission but we pulled them out, we don't expect Iran to be upset that we had spies operating in their country with a mission of sabotage. Yeah I know the Dutch are fond of smoking certain substances, but what were they smoking when this was written?

With that being said, a calculated attack on facilities in Iran could happen at any point in time. Israel will not let Iran get a nuclear weapon. The United States won't let Iran get a nuclear weapon. On the subject of troop availabilities, we got troops to the West, troops to the East, Iraq wants the US to finish up and get out, we could say, "we will be next door if you need us" and go for the hat trick. While I believe we are not wanting to go through this, Israel will not even gamble with a nuclear Iran. The US elections may or may not have anything to do with timing, would Israel go ahead and attack out of fear that an Obama/Biden win could mean that we would not support their attack on Iran, while a sitting lame duck GW Bush would be more apt to intercept any Iran reactions. Would the United States be better off performing the attack themselves, military actions by Israel are met with much displeasure by the rest of the Arab community, while attacks by the United States are a bit more tolerated since we drive the economies of the most powerful Arab countries and have more influence and have attempted to find non military resolutions for the past 5 years. Nuclear North Korea is one thing, and I am sure South Korea and Japan are still uneasy about that whole situation (as should be the pacific coast). Nuclear Iran with direct ties to terrorist organizations is a much graver threat.

I wonder if Israel/America will attack with the same nukes they are claiming to want to prevent ? Or maybe they'll up the ante and use the Hypocrisy Bomb.

Yes. That's a perfectly reasonable, rational, non-idiotic thing to say.

After all, America is just itching to start a nuclear war.

__________________
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.

~ Plato

If that is what is required to get the job done, then yes. I don't think it is required though, we have the smart bombs and genious bombs, whatever you want to call them. We don't really need to blow everything in a large area up any more with the precision and design of our bunker busters. Drop a bomb, create a hole in the bunker, drop another bomb in the exact same precise spot and well you get the idea.