That all sounds nice and American but the fact is that unions "secure" their raises and benefits by inflicting financial pain on companies and in some cases, sabotage.

Another thing I hate about unions is the stupid union rules in the workplace. And what happens when you have an outstanding union worker who enjoys busting his/her ass at work and produce more than their co-workers; do they get a bigger raise at review time then their union counterparts or is the raise the same for all workers? My understanding is that the raise would be the same. If this is true, this seems to me to be a productivity reducing rule.

Kramer

__________________
“We should never be more vigilant than at the moment a new dogma is being installed. … The left has been swept along, entranced by the allure of weather as revolutionary agent, naïvely conceiving of global warming as a crisis that will force radical social changes on capitalism.”

TheNation, June 7, 2007

I read somewhere he made $24 million in 2008, which works out to about $2.56 or so per car sold by GM, if you believe the world wide sales number of 9.37 million vehicles. GM is doing pretty well in Europe and China, and probably Brazil too; they only seem to be 'bankrupt' here in the largest vehicle market on the globe ...

__________________
"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon

Wanna hear something hilarious?
Detroit id going bankrupt!
Oh, my god it's funny.
(I drive a Prius)

No one is arguing that point. American auto makers has "blown" it big time. Yes, they didn't build cars that would sell, primarily ignored Toyota's takeover of the hybrid market. But, that is water under the bridge now.

Just like any company in this entire country, we are "allowed to succeed & we are also allowed to fail". What our government seems intent on doing is not allowing the failure of companies. If they're going to do it for the auto makers, then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I'll be the first standing in line for my bailout. My business has been in the dumps for over 1-1/2 years because of this economy.

The point--Yes you're right--it is managements fault--now they have their hands out because the union workers will not renegotiate their contracts, & management should have NEVER made those high priced agreements with the union in the first place.

In conclusion--the people who have absolutely NO fault in this are the American taxpayers--that may be paying the bill for very bad decisions & employees that are more intent on getting the extra pay & benefits, than saving their jobs & the companies whom they work for.

Those figures are FACT. When pensions, medical & all the other benefits are added in, an employee in the auto union makes $71.00 PER HOUR.

In fact, I was listening to a 30 year retiree of the Auto Union who was actually embassed to state that he had been drawing a very good pension longer than he actually worked for the company.

I know it doesn't make sense, that someone who assembles something are higher paid than most college graduates, but it is the truth.

Even thirty years ago, when most blue collar workers were making $5 to $7 per hour, American auto workers were around $20--which we found was shocking back then too.

Did you not notice I stated "salary--PLUS benefits"-BENEFITS which include pensions, medical & a whole host of other add-ons?

I am getting sick & tired of people on this board, that will continually question facts & ask for relentless sources of fact checking.

If some of you would ACTUALLY watch or read the news--you would be hearing the exact same thing as I.

It's no secret that Detroit has always been this way. I remember American auto workers getting paid $20 per hour, when other blue collar workers were making $5 to $7 per hr. That was 30 years ago.

First that article LBS is from 2005 and here is one from the same time, read carefully.
More UAW workers bankrupt - 09/18/05

anway.

The issue here beyond “average pay” is retirement benes and retirement pay. In 2005 a guy with 28 years in was making 87k BEFORE OT. They got plenty of OT becasue they like evey other union bases the retirees pay on their last 5 years of service, so the shop steward makes sure that is guys in that 5 year bracket due to seniority etc. gets that OT so his retirement benefits are maxed out and based on an inflated 5 year average. That aside.

If according to your article in 1979 the average was 16 an hour it is beyond impossible that the average has only risen $8.

Here is a UAW article 2003, I goggled- “average UAW salary 2008” and this is the latest I could find-

Wages and labor costs - UAW 2003 Bargaining for America

from the link-

A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker earns $29.75 per hour of straight time.

That was 5 years ago. So if we take 30 and add 3% per year as the standard raise, we get to 35 and change, there by a year calcualtes out to approx.
67K. They get to buy cars at near cost, they get their benefits etc etc...so as to total compensation we get to approx. 100K.

Now, since layoffs are done on a union submitted basis as to seniority etc. you tell me, those coupla of hundred thousand workers, what do you think their average service years are and their average pay is?

(Where I work we hired an RCG [recent college graduate] and his starting was 34 an hour, his total compensation all in was 122k. And, we don’t get the UAW healthcare and other ancillary benifits).

Lets be middle of the road, I’ll go with oh 42 an hour. So, were does that leave us? 130? 140K, certainly, before any OT etc. so that’s straight compensation before any OT is factored in. The point is that 150 or 160 is not out of the realm of possibility at all.
So the 70 an hour figure is pretty darn close imho.

When a company totals up its total operating cost the labor piece is done as its own cost analysis and as an all encompassing gross cost subtracted form the bottom line.

__________________

"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."

Well some more googling has yielded this- as of 2006

CARPE DIEM: Transformational UAW Deal? Accept Professors' Pay


Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Its interesting as to the disparity vis a vis educated positions that require years of sturdy, and the consequent cost involved. I will say in defense of auto workers, its mind numbing work, its it tedious and not very challenging, but then again, there are folks who enjoy that type of vocation, but there appears to be a disconnect as to compensation. But then again he private sector a phd can make 200K a year.

Attached Images

 

__________________

"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."

According to the sources below a production line warker makes $ 28.00 per hour. Similar it is said to Japaneese Mfgrs. operating in this country. The difference it seems is in the benefit plans and the mix of beneficieries.

THe cost of benefits is reported as follows: "the cost of benefits, including pension and future retiree health care costs, nearly triples the cost to GM to $78.21, according to the Center for Automotive Research" (equating to $ 50.00 per hour for benefits that includes retirees.

Toyota reports: Nov 20, 2008 ... "Toyota spokesman Mike Goss said the company's total labor costs at its older U.S. plants are around $48, with about $30 per hour in wages". This seems to mean a benefit cost of $ 18.00 per hour.

"Toyota proves union-resistant"

The strategy of toyota and other Japaneese auto firms and their absence of the albatross of a UAW, more expensive benefits covering pensions and health plans for retirees plus a good product puts them out front.

CorpWatch : "Toyota: Auto Industry Race to the BottomSep 16, 2008 ... Blunting support for unionization is Toyota’s practice of paying wages nearly on par with the U.S. auto companies (around $25 an hour) sans "The Albatross"

Chapter 11 seems the only course.

It is a shame none of the posters above ever remembers the days of worker strikes for a living wage when the Corporations [paid wages in tokens and demanded you buy from their stores and rented their rents. When Goon squads with shotguns forced workers to work for whatever the owners of the business wished to pay, which was seldom a living wage. Unions like all other operations by democratic means can be good or bad. depending upon the managers of the unions. just like those managers of the corporations.

It's true. Many people forget that. It's also true how employers now a days make sure they are paying a competitive wage and benefits to make sure workers don't organize. As much as unions get criticized, they have done a lot of good. Many of us can thank that we have a 40 hour work week and free weekends as a "given" because of unions.

As you said, though. Unions can be good or bad. It's an imperfect system, but one that can hopefully keep serving as a check and balance.

__________________
pro Deus sic diligo orbis terrarum

We may all soon get a chance to see what a world without unions is like. NLRA is still a toothless piece of legislation and NLRB has been systematically starved by every admin since reagan. Only about 6-7% of workers are unionized now and alot of those are working for companies which may soon be able to use bankruptcy provisions to void their workers' union contracts.

__________________
A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master, who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the last extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Well I have not come to the show without reading and becoming familiar with the history of unions and their efficacy which I abide.

But as you inferred, the union structure especially in this case has become antithetical to its own best interests and certainly in many cases the interests of the companies for whom they work.

I never thought it was humane to employ underage workers or treat the ones they have brutally, paying them a pittance, calling in the goon squads, Joe Hill et al and the strike breaking that took place in the past such as Ford & Pullman and I know who Whitehead and Farley are and what they did by example.

At this time and place the entitlement culture driven by and allowed to grow by the unions as to a job forever, is not efficable either and frankly unfair.

In short, the pendulum has swung to far inho.

__________________

"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."

Still waiting for the actual numbers, not numbers pulled out of somebody's ass and repeated 465,000 times on message boards and blogs and transcripts of the Rush Limbaugh Show.

The average GM pension is around $15-$18K a year. If you want to amuse yourself, try finding out the actual number of 30 year men drawing the top rates.

Most 'college graduates' are idiots who just screwed off for four or five years. Today's Colleges aren't even up to the level of 8th graders in the 1950's.

__________________
"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon

The key word here is 'future'. They're talking as if every single worker they have now actually gets vested at the top pay rate and actually gets 30 years in. 30 years from now is 2037-2038, for the math challenged around here. The whole 'legacy costs' angle is a scam; most of the current pensions are already covered, and the funds had a surplus as late as August. Current retirees are only guaranteed a $12K minimum. If you want to have some fun with math you play with just how much needs to be invested and amortized over 30 years to pay a $15K pension till doomsday. I calculate as invested in a fund paying 3% simple interest it only requires about a $500K fund, and that allows 30 years to reach. The 2007 contract called for a pension of some $50 per year vested, or around $3,000 a month for somebody retiring in 2037-2038. This would require $1,200,000 invested at 3% to cover, assuming the company didn't put a dime into saving for it; if they do put into the fund beginning in year 1 of employment, they of course are going to reach that amount with a lot less than $1,200,000, thanks to the miracles of compound interest over 30 years. These are just rough numbers, but even the most casual observer isn't going to find '$71 an hour' in any of them.

Toyota wouldn't pay squat if it weren't for the UAW's success at organizing.

That may well be, but it won't be because of the UAW. Their labor costs now are less than 2%-3% of their cheapest models, and much less the higher up the retail price range you go. Most state sales taxes on cars and trucks are more than double that, easily.

Health care costs are another story altogether, but the so-called 'legacy costs' of pensions is a red herring, and there is still no evidence at all for these '$71 an hour' numbers.

__________________
"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon