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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
O'Sullivan Bere's Avatar
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidei Defensor View Post
I disagree. Indeed, under your proposal they would be withholding the decision to keep it out of her nomination hearings as an issue. It is quite easy to see that as motivation to "help" someone regardless of their reasons. Besides, it is quite possible justices "on the right" can think someone "on the left" a fine judge worthy of confirmation regardless of whether or not they would vote to overturn her decision in a particular case. I mean, there's no doubt Souter's replacement is going to be from the left whether it's Sotomayor or not.
Sure they could feel she's be a fine addition and that politics vis-a-vis the bench played no role in their decision. That case is going to be much harder to make now. It's no secret they know her detractors have been chomping at the bit about this decision and want to use it as a weapon against her if reversed, that she is a person seeking a place on the same bench and people might reasonably suspect that the conservative majority wanted to help scuttle it on political/ideological grounds so they can have more sway, even if temporarily until a future appointment is made, etc. And this is what is going to happen--claims that those justices and their decision are politically partisan, untrustworthy and conniving. This is why the standard is 'mere appearance of impropriety' and not 'actual impropriety'--anything that can suggest it should be avoided.

I revert to the earlier statements on temporary deferment as a much better option and signalling that the court is concerned with making judicial decisions purely for the sake of doing their duties and nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidei Defensor View Post
I'm not aware of any protocol of withholding decisions involving a nominee at a lower level.

Couldn't it certainly be argued that the "right" thing to do would be to proceed normally with the case -- neither expediting it or delaying it? That, it seems to me, would be the objective, non-partisan course. If they didn't speed up the decision here in order that it become an issue at the nomination hearings, I don't see a problem with the timing.
The standard is the broader and more comprehensive one of 'mere appearance of impropriety.' You don't do things in a manner that suggests the court might have had something up its sleeves in whatever it does.

As stated above, she is seeking to be a member of that very court with an impending confirmation process this summer. This decision has been turned into a political football for that process. And it plainly appears the SCOTUS tossed the ball into that arena right before the confirmation process, and the decision was known to be divided along ideological lines. And doubtlessly the conservative judges will be accused of skullduggery in doing that and even in their motivations for deciding the case. None of that is good for the court's image, the members' image, etc. And I'd say the exact same thing if the reverse was true and Ginsberg wrote the majority decision and the fallout I expect it would cause. The image and integrity of the court system has a much more lasting and enduring goal and purpose than just one appointment at some time. Anything that can reasonably be questioned negatively on that front therefore ought to be avoided.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidei Defensor View Post
It seems you've just introduced another reason why the right course would be not to delay the ruling. It doesn't seem appropriate to me to forestall a ruling in order to increase your vote advantage. Would that be OK with you? And if they did delay it and obtained such a vote advantage couldn't they be subject to criticism for that? (mere appearance of impropriety)
I was writing that portion with the thoughts of what GOP and/or conservative political officials, operatives and supporters ought to have hoped for rather than what the court ought to do. It would be inappropriate for a court to stall a ruling for those purposes. But, in the political arena, it would be wiser not to publicly call for the decision before she was appointed because it not only makes the conservative justices look fair, it also makes the decision ultimately stronger. It's one of many reasons why I think the GOP is once again not only throwing shit up against the wall in trying to knock her off the train path, but it's splattering itself in the process. As for the SCOTUS, it should have seen its own different reasons as stated above.
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Last edited by O'Sullivan Bere; 06-29-2009 at 01:26 PM.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
Fidei Defensor's Avatar
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
I'm not saying the firefighters here don't have a case for discrimination, but I believe it should be based on the fact that everyone who failed was black, which could indicate cultural bias. The argument you're using here is very weak, IMO.
You know, it occurs to me that a burning building doesn't make allowances for cultural differences. You either know how to lead a team to put out a fire or you don't. I'd be curious to hear how cultural bias could legitimately affect the outcome of that determination. I mean, do the test questions need to be written in jive?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
EricOKC's Avatar
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
The SCOTUS was wrong again, and shows how it have been packed with bigots.
Care to explain your reasoning for that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
The test was blatantly unfair, because it was based on reading material that was not available at the fire stations.
Are you serious? So if they cannot add 2+2, is THAT unfair? After all, I'm sure there are no math text books available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
Those who did well on the test had purchased their own books and hired tutuors.
That's not entirely true, but even if it were, so what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
That is essentially cheating, and would not make them better for these promotions.
So somehow you believe that someone who is resourceful enough to obtain assistance when needed is NOT better suited to a senior position?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
They need to devise criteria that can not be bought like this test was.
The test was not bought. Because someone obtains study material does NOT mean they bought a test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
This shows why Sotomayer and people like her are so important for the SCOTUS.
Oh yes - because in an emergency, you want people responding who only capable of doing that which they were taught at the fire station. Don't want to have ANYONE thinking outside the box.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
Right now there is no justice.
Really? So you think those who worked their asses off and passed the test did not earn it?
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
Fidei Defensor's Avatar
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere View Post
I revert to the earlier statements on temporary deferment as a much better option and signalling that the court is concerned with making judicial decisions purely for the sake of doing their duties and nothing else.
And I revert to mine about temporary deferment having the appearance of impropriety for being seen as an effort to help the nominee, to gain a greater vote advantage in the event of recusal, etc.

It seems to me the only way to take politics out of it is to leave them out entirely -- neither expedite nor delay the decision.

Quote:
And I'd say the exact same thing if the reverse was true and Ginsberg wrote the majority decision and the fallout I expect it would cause.

...

I was writing that portion with the thoughts of what GOP and/or conservative political officials, operatives and supporters ought to have hoped for rather than what the court ought to do. It would be inappropriate for a court to stall a ruling for those purposes. But, in the political arena, it would be wiser not to publicly call for the decision before she was appointed because it not only makes the conservative justices look fair, it also makes the decision ultimately stronger. It's one of many reasons why I think the GOP is once again not only throwing shit up against the wall in trying to knock her off the train path, but it's splattering itself in the process. As for the SCOTUS, it should have seen its own different reasons as stated above.
But it wasn't the conservative justices' call; it was Justice Kennedy's.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
Vice President

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: DC
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
O'Sullivan Bere
Sure they could feel she's be a fine addition and that politics vis-a-vis the bench played no role in their decision. That case is going to be much harder to make now. It's no secret they know her detractors have been chomping at the bit about this decision and want to use it as a weapon against her if reversed, that she is a person seeking a place on the same bench and people might reasonably suspect that the conservative majority wanted to help scuttle it on political/ideological grounds so they can have more sway, even if temporarily until a future appointment is made, etc. And this is what is going to happen--claims that those justices and their decision are politically partisan, untrustworthy and conniving. This is why the standard is 'mere appearance of impropriety' and not 'actual impropriety'--anything that can suggest it should be avoided.

I revert to the earlier statements on temporary deferment as a much better option and signalling that the court is concerned with making judicial decisions purely for the sake of doing their duties and nothing else.
Again, I simply assert that, in my view, it is improper for the court to take such political considerations into the exercise of its duties.

Quote:
O'Sullivan Bere
The standard is the broader and more comprehensive one of 'mere appearance of impropriety.' You don't do things in a manner that suggests the court might have had something up its sleeves in whatever it does.

As stated above, she is seeking to be a member of that very court with an impending confirmation process this summer. This decision has been turned into a political football for that process. And it plainly appears the SCOTUS tossed the ball into that arena right before the confirmation process, and the decision was known to be divided along ideological lines. And doubtlessly the conservative judges will be accused of skullduggery in doing that and even in their motivations for deciding the case. None of that is good for the court's image, the members' image, etc. And I'd say the exact same thing if the reverse was true and Ginsberg wrote the majority decision and the fallout I expect it would cause. The image and integrity of the court system has a much more lasting and enduring goal and purpose than just one appointment at some time. Anything that can reasonably be questions negatively on that front therefore ought to be avoided.
In my view, it would be a much greater appearance of impropriety to so obviously delay an opinion for no other reason than its possible political impact. The proper thing to do, is what the court would do absent any political consideration. That would be to release the opinion when rendered.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Is this fair?

Teen takes a Driving clase and pays for that class , gets a better deal on insurance.
Teen does not take the driving class and pays a higher insurance rate.

Right or wrong?
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
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Member Since: Jun 2009
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

The real issue here is that the Bell curve does exist and the left will not be happy until it is institutionalized out by making standards for Whites much higher than that of blacks or browns. They have already accomplished this in academia, but society has rightfully resisted this in jobs like firefighting and policing because these lighter standards for minorities will kill people.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
redstone357's Avatar
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Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Dixie
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Mississippi     Louisiana

Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidei Defensor View Post
You know, it occurs to me that a burning building doesn't make allowances for cultural differences. You either know how to lead a team to put out a fire or you don't. I'd be curious to hear how cultural bias could legitimately affect the outcome of that determination. I mean, do the test questions need to be written in jive?

Well said!!
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
O'Sullivan Bere's Avatar
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus1124 View Post
Again, I simply assert that, in my view, it is improper for the court to take such political considerations into the exercise of its duties.



In my view, it would be a much greater appearance of impropriety to so obviously delay an opinion for no other reason than its possible political impact. The proper thing to do, is what the court would do absent any political consideration. That would be to release the opinion when rendered.
It's a reasonable counterargument, just like Fidei has also offered. I guess we'll all just have to see what pans out over time.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
daddio's Avatar
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Member Since: Jun 2008
Location: the south
Posts: 8,829

United_States     Virginia

Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere View Post
Sure they could feel she's be a fine addition and that politics vis-a-vis the bench played no role in their decision. That case is going to be much harder to make now. It's no secret they know her detractors have been chomping at the bit about this decision and want to use it as a weapon against her if reversed, that she is a person seeking a place on the same bench and people might reasonably suspect that the conservative majority wanted to help scuttle it on political/ideological grounds so they can have more sway, even if temporarily until a future appointment is made, etc. And this is what is going to happen--claims that those justices and their decision are politically partisan, untrustworthy and conniving. This is why the standard is 'mere appearance of impropriety' and not 'actual impropriety'--anything that can suggest it should be avoided.

I revert to the earlier statements on temporary deferment as a much better option and signalling that the court is concerned with making judicial decisions purely for the sake of doing their duties and nothing else.

The standard is the broader and more comprehensive one of 'mere appearance of impropriety.' You don't do things in a manner that suggests the court might have had something up its sleeves in whatever it does.

As stated above, she is seeking to be a member of that very court with an impending confirmation process this summer. This decision has been turned into a political football for that process. And it plainly appears the SCOTUS tossed the ball into that arena right before the confirmation process, and the decision was known to be divided along ideological lines. And doubtlessly the conservative judges will be accused of skullduggery in doing that and even in their motivations for deciding the case. None of that is good for the court's image, the members' image, etc. And I'd say the exact same thing if the reverse was true and Ginsberg wrote the majority decision and the fallout I expect it would cause. The image and integrity of the court system has a much more lasting and enduring goal and purpose than just one appointment at some time. Anything that can reasonably be questioned negatively on that front therefore ought to be avoided.


I was writing that portion with the thoughts of what GOP and/or conservative political officials, operatives and supporters ought to have hoped for rather than what the court ought to do. It would be inappropriate for a court to stall a ruling for those purposes. But, in the political arena, it would be wiser not to publicly call for the decision before she was appointed because it not only makes the conservative justices look fair, it also makes the decision ultimately stronger. It's one of many reasons why I think the GOP is once again not only throwing shit up against the wall in trying to knock her off the train path, but it's splattering itself in the process. As for the SCOTUS, it should have seen its own different reasons as stated above.


Once this case was accepted for review it was in the mill and was going to get done. Its not the SCOTUS's fault prezbo picked her knowing her case was to be reviewed. Piont your finger the right direction O.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
O'Sullivan Bere's Avatar
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddio View Post
Once this case was accepted for review it was in the mill and was going to get done. Its not the SCOTUS's fault prezbo picked her knowing her case was to be reviewed. Piont your finger the right direction O.
I never said it shouldn't decide the case. I addressed what I felt was its timing of releasing the decision that IMO unnecessarily plays into the hands of the political football of the confirmation process for which it will create suspicions about the integrity and motives of the majority decision judges both politically, judicially and in their decision that could have been avoided had it waited to release the decision in the Fall after the process is concluded. My finger is pointed only where I feel it should be, namely at the court insofar as what courts ought to do regarding protecting their own interests and mission.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere View Post
It's pointed only where I feel it should be, namely what courts ought to do regarding their own interests and mission. It is not supposed to be there to serve or become unduly a pawn of the political purposes and agendas of anyone not a member thereof.


Ad how is going about it's business as was defined well before there was even talk of an opening on the bench not doing just that ?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
President
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by redstone357 View Post
The real issue here is that the Bell curve does exist and the left will not be happy until it is institutionalized out by making standards for Whites much higher than that of blacks or browns. They have already accomplished this in academia, but society has rightfully resisted this in jobs like firefighting and policing because these lighter standards for minorities will kill people.
Exactly.

I thought we were supposed to judge people by their accomplishments and abilities ?

It's amazing to me that racism is alive and thriving in America. What do we call this newfangled form of racism ?

"Acceptable racism" ?

"Justified racism" ?

We're looking for ways to justify this racism and make it acceptable.

I thought those might be appropriate names

Ok, so now we know that in America some racism is instituted, justifiable and acceptable.

And we thought we we're going to get rid of racism

Now we've made it an acceptable institution
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
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Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricOKC View Post
Care to explain your reasoning for that?

Are you serious? So if they cannot add 2+2, is THAT unfair? After all, I'm sure there are no math text books available.

That's not entirely true, but even if it were, so what?

So somehow you believe that someone who is resourceful enough to obtain assistance when needed is NOT better suited to a senior position?
The test was not bought. Because someone obtains study material does NOT mean they bought a test.

Oh yes - because in an emergency, you want people responding who only capable of doing that which they were taught at the fire station. Don't want to have ANYONE thinking outside the box.

Really? So you think those who worked their asses off and passed the test did not earn it?


You claims are silly.
I provided an example that proved the test contained questions that were not at all relevant to being able to fight a fire more effectively.
And everyone had been told that they would not have to purchase any material in order to do well on the test.

Those that did purchase the additional material and hire tutors, would not at all be any better at fighting fires, because the additional material was not relevant to the way these stations actually fought fires.
A tutor does not make you better at thinking out of the box, or better at fighting fires, but only better at passing standardized tests.

It has nothing to do with being "resourceful", but being willing to spend a lot of money.
The amount of money one spends should never effect one's ability to pass a test.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: May 2009
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Posts: 1,014

   
Re: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Quote:
Originally Posted by AkDiesel View Post
Is this fair?

Teen takes a Driving clase and pays for that class , gets a better deal on insurance.
Teen does not take the driving class and pays a higher insurance rate.

Right or wrong?

Driver's Ed teachers know more about driving then students do.

But these tutors know less about fighting fires than the firefighters do.
The tutors don't teach anything about firefighting, but how to do better at taking standardized tests.
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