I see. So we could print dollars we don't have to pay off debt that we can't payoff. Not sure how that works. Obama can however, tax the crap out of us to pay off his schemes. That is the likely scenario.

So was Bush a puppet also and if so, how did the truly powerful let him fuck up?

No doubt we went into Iraq mostly for oil. Not necessarily for Iraq's oil but more to make sure the region didn't fall into the hands of Saddam. But I hope you're right about this.

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"If you think about it, UPS and FedEx are doing just fine," he said. "It's the post office that's always having problems." Barack Obama on government run healthcare. 08/11/2009

American by birth.
Conservative by the grace of God.

Still sore about the war of northern aggression.

The way it works is that you don't tax this generation, but just pass it on to the next one.
But it may work, if we can get the economy back up to productivity so that the next generation will be able to afford it.
It is sort of debt reduction by inflation.

Yes, Bush was probably also a puppet, in which case what he did was intentional.
But you should not be happy about getting Iraqi oil, because the people pulling the strings are not going to share that with us.
We are going to have to pay more than $5 a gallon for it, just like the rest of the world.
It would be better to hope that Bush as just a personal screw up, and that neither he nor Obama were puppets.
Then we would not control Iraqi oil, but would have normal world competition equal access, which is much better than cheating.
That is the only scenario were we as individuals have any hope.

What do we as a country tell the 9 out of 100 nationaly that are out of work? What about the areas of the country that has 25 out of 100 with out work? What do we tell them?

To bad so sad?

Don't worry Obama and group will be working to get you money today and your kids and grandkids will be paying for it? or that they will be the slaves of China?

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Government Should Fear the People That Voted Them In!!

New Government=one that the President likes a GOP idea but then the Staff puts that Idea in a very DEEP HOLE.

Read HR143 get enlightment.

The Revolution Will not be Televised

Well I can say our city has made new sidewalks in town that we didn't need, and the state is repaving a five lane strip
3 miles long that no on can figure out why - the road was in find shape...nothing wrong with it at all.
So hey - theres probably $1 million in tax money to save 20 jobs...at least!!

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The government cannot give without first taking.

You forget that we also only own things in dollars, so if the dollar become just paper, the Chinese, Japanese, etc., can come in with truckloads of it, and buy up everything.
When we start financing our national debt to foreign countries, we risk ownership of our local assets.
Printing more currency and making it worth less, is the last thing we should want to do.
It is the country with the strongest currency that everyone invests in, and whose assets then are automatically worth the most.

We may have "secured Iraqi oil", but not for us.
It is probably more likely that people like Chalabi, Sadr, bin Laden, and Israel who will benefit the most.
It is unlikely we will ever get any advantage from it at the gasoline pump.
We were probably manipulated and taken advantage of.
Saddam still in power would have been better for us.
At least he kept oil prices steady and reasonable, and had nothing against us.
People like Chalabi, Sadr, bin Laden, and Israel, would prefer to see us go under if it would help them.

You haven't observed that Bush's spending was in another country?

Obama is spending the money here. It will repair and refurbish our infrastructure, (and banks are part of our fiscal infrastructure).

Bush spent the money to blow up things and kill people in Iraq, (which is pure waste, benefitting nobody) and then to build those things up again. (of some benefit to the Iraqis but little to us)

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Alizee Jacotay, the reason god invented hips

Good point.
It is becoming an all or nothing risk at this stage of the betting.
But what is the choice?
If we don't try the stimulus pump priming, there is no question we will default eventually.
At least this gives us a chance to win it all back.

Win it all back? Win what back?

__________________
Government Should Fear the People That Voted Them In!!

New Government=one that the President likes a GOP idea but then the Staff puts that Idea in a very DEEP HOLE.

Read HR143 get enlightment.

The Revolution Will not be Televised

I disagree.
Most of the money Bush borrowed was from emergency allocations he demanded from Congress, for the wars.
Congress could not deny the funds without being blamed for "endangering the troops".
The majority of the borrowing was not from a Congressionally approved budget.

In contrast, Obama claims he will allow us to taper off and get rid of the deficit eventually.

Our best bet is to hope he is right.
We don't have a lot of other options at this point, and it would be foolish to want him to fail for partisan reasons.

Sadly, what isn't keeping Obama from "spending what is really necessary" is the fact that we don't have any friggin money!.

You can't spend your way out of debt while borrowing 1/3 of everything you are spending. Period.

Matt

the non-budget borrowing fo wars was temporary in nature, prezbo's spending is ON budget and is radically higher and will never go down.

he will fail because of his policies, not because anyone wants him to or not.

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Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

By borrowing all this money, Bush as essentially moved most of our assets to Chinese, Japanese, and other control.
That is why the real estate market dropped so quickly.
We have little real assets to back anything up these days.

And the problem of course then is that we no longer have the capital needed in order to increase production anymore.

So in order to regain or win our assets back, we need to borrow more capital in order to see the current bet.
Otherwise we will have to fold, and lose all out assets, (bet), forever.
That is ok is you don't mind us all having to sent our rent checks to China.
But I would prefer not being a renter at all.
And I think it is worth the risk, considering our options.

No it will not, it's not being spent that way. The majority of the stimulus is going to government employees whose salaries we cannot maintain in the long-run without severe tax hikes (which will also not be sustainable in the long-run).

Now, if the money was spent in a better fashion (honestly, not spending borrowed money would have been the best route) and given to people that were forced to spend it on things they wanted, it would have a more positive effect because it would support industry that is somewhat in demand.

Isn't this why we have taxes?

The rich have had a free ride for the past 8 years, maybe we should go back to the same rates we had under Reagan. I didn't notice any of them moving out of the country then.

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Alizee Jacotay, the reason god invented hips

I am not saying that this is actually what Obama is doing, but yes you can spend your way out of debt.
If you spend it on investments that pay back enough dividends, then you do win the bet and get to keep the whole pot.
You only lose if you fail to increase production to the point that it covers the existing debt payments.
Not spending anything now is a guaranteed loss, because we already have past debt that needs to be paid off.

We have no choice now but to greatly increase production, or become a Chinese satellite country.
This is no time for conservative attitudes.
It is too late for that, even if they are normally best.
These are not normal circumstances.