all depends on who does the bitchin.

not working so well for the homosexuals.

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Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

Some of us were actually hoping you might stop dodging simple, direct questions.

But, as your post suggests, there's probably little point in expecting you to be able to do that...

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...

didn't work so well for just the blacks either. good thing they got support huh?

I didn't read the 37 pages of this thread, but everytime I go to the USP board index and I see this thread, I picture BO in a tight shirt tied in the front stepping up to the mic and saying "HAYYYYYYY". Not saying he's gay but the thread is worded where it can go ummmmm, both ways.

Just thought I'd share that.

Yeah, I pictured something similar. Like a Big Gay Al concert.

Are you? Are you going to address your double standard or not?No, I want you to adopt a reasonable policy that makes sense. One where you don't have government institutions discriminating against people based on qualities that have nothing to do with the job. Your current position, in addition to being ridiculous, is also a double standard. Just pointing out the problems with your position in hopes that you will finally change it. Then again, perhaps being wrong is what reinforces your resolve to maintain that position.We wouldn't even have to go that far. Your position stumbles and falls flat on its face on the military level, which is before we reach the government and private levels.By the way, you did read the section of the law that I posted earlier, right?


(b) Policy.— A member of the armed forces shall be separated from the armed forces under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense if one or more of the following findings is made and approved in accordance with procedures set forth in such regulations:

(3) That the member has married or attempted to marry a person known to be of the same biological sex.


So, merely having it be public record that you are gay (from years prior to military service) could potentially get one expelled.

Here's what I'm guessing you're most likely to get:

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All things serve The Beam

I dont think he could answer that even if he wanted to. Your missing the point. For him, homosexuality is inherently wrong and to agree with any law that allows for the lifestyle ( IE marriage, couples, homosexual sex ) would go against his spiritual views and moral standards. I think thats why hes ok with dont ask dont tell. It dosent violate the rights of an individual but it dosent allow for the lifestyle at the same time.

His view is as important to him as yours is to you. I dont think there will ever be full agreement until science proves the true nature of homosexuality.

Emphasis mine.

Even when science comes with that conclusive and undeniable evidence of it being a genetic condition or some such, there will still be those, who will cling to their beliefs.

Kind of like conspiracy theorists really... you can throw any fact at them and they´ll just find some new angle to bitch about.

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"It's no exaggeration to say that the undecideds could go one way or another." - George W. Bush

Does he think sex before marriage is inherently wrong (straight sex)? Divorce? Cheating on a spouse? Shall we kick all of those people out of the military for that?

I dont know what he thinks, but ill give my opinion on the matter from a religious point of view.


sex before marriage...not a lifestyle like homosexuality. You can have sex before marriage and ask for forgivness and try not to do it again. You may fail, but we all fail everyday and thats the beauty of forgivness. as long as your genuinely trying you can be forgiven and move on. You cant be forgiven for a sin that you purposfully continue to make knowing that you will not change or even attempt to correct. Therefore you cant be kicked out of the army for sex before marriage because the military is not god and could never know if you planned on doing it again. No reason to bother with a law for that. If you have sex with alot of girls, get them pregnant, or do anything that causes your chain of command grief then you can get kicked out. It wont be because you had sex before marriage though, it wil be because you made the military look bad.

Divorce, again not a lifestyle like homosexuality. If a military man's wife cheats on him and get pregnant then he can get a divorce. He has done nothing wrong. Although the bible does not look favorably on divorce, it is still not a sin that is unforgivable. You can divorce, ask for forgivness and genuinely decide that if you get married again you will not divorce. The army isnt god so again, they cant make a law for this. Same rule applies for divorce as with sex before marriage. If your divorce habits make the military look bad in some way, you can be kicked out.

Cheating, you can get kicked out of the army for cheating. See following link.

Article 134— Adultery

The maximum penalty is dishonorable discharge with full loss of pay. I suppose how severe you get punished depends on why, who and where you cheated. If it makes the army look bad by putting a typical soldier in a negative light then you may get the full punishment, but I suspect that usually its a demotion in rank and pay grade with some extra duty.

Beyond that, cheating again is not a lifestyle like homosexuality. You can cheat and decide never to do it again and be forgiven.

The main thing is, homosexuality is a lifestyle from which there is no desire to return from thus seperating if from most other sins.

One aspect of the military that people( especially those who have not served ) fail to understand is that the military does not want to be looked at unfavorably. Your not allowed to wear your uniform in public places after 6pm at most duty stations, your not allowed to go to a club or bar in uniform, and anything you do that makes the military look bad in general is punishable under UCMJ.

Dont ask dont tell was implimented during a time when gay sex was thought to be...well...gross and therefore could disrupt the chain of command if known, and lower moral for the soldiers. Perhaps now that some time has passed homosexuality is more culturally accepted. Maybe even most soldiers wouldnt mind bunking up with a gay person. Who knows. We wont know until/if they repeal dont ask dont tell and reality hits the military. I have a feeling that a lot of sexual harassment suits will follow shortly.

A friend of mine is gay. He's as gay as they get.

He's been celibate for 14 years.

Can he be forgiven?

And why can't a gay person ask for forgiveness? Why would a failure on their part viewed as irreperable, while a failure on the part of a heterosexual would not?

You need to wrap your head around the fact that the military is not very concerned about what God would do...

Huh?

What's your military experience?

I used to cause grief for my COC on a regular basis. I retired after 20 years. There's nothing in the UCMJ which states "Can be kicked out for causing grief"...

Sorry, won't happen...

What sins are unforgivable?

Um, I'd really like to see you back that up...

What about my celibate friend? He hasn't had sex in over a decade. Surely you can cut him some slack, right?

Thank you for describing just about every aspect of society...

Not true. Not true at all...

Again, not true.

I suppose I could dissect the rest of your post but, really, do we really want any more bloodshed?

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For those who have fought to defend it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know...



If it wasn't for double standards, liberals would have no standards at all...

Homosexuality is a biological phenomenon common to most mammals. No homosexual mammal chooses to be homosexual just as no heterosexual mammal makes that choice. Only someone with no knowledge of homosexuality could mistake it for a "lifestyle".

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master, who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the last extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

the only unforgivable sins are suicide and worshipping the devil. other than that youre golden

How do you know the homos don't ask for forgiveness in their prayers? And how do you know the sex-without-marriage crowd even considers their actions to be wrong? Are you saying that every straight member of the military never has sex before marriage, that they do and ask for forgiveness all the time, or that those who do have sex without marriage and think it's fine should be kicked out? I guess that should be directed at him, but since you've taken the opportunity to tell us what you think he thinks, go ahead. Ever heard of the "free love" culture/lifestyle?Well, that seems like a different set of requirements now. First you list the requirement of "anything that causes grief" and then the requirement of making the military look bad. Is this an either/or case or are both of them required to be kicked out?

For the grief part, grief to whom? Surely there are people of different religions on the military and the eating of pork or cheating even once would cause them grief. Maybe there are some "free love" enthusiasts there that find religious people to be offensive to them. You might just have to kick out half of the military. Same goes for making the military look bad. In whose opinion? I think kicking out gays for being gay makes them look really fucking bad. Are you sure you think those standards make sense?Well, if that's your requirement, then allowing homos to be in the military would be great as it would make the military seem less intolerant. Case closed, I guess.Looks like it's being run like a church, only with less forgiveness.Do they have an entry for repeated fucking/sex without marriage? We're talking about people who enjoy it and never ask for forgiveness. I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of people did that. Do they get the boot?Can't you do the same with homosexuality? If having gay sex is what is actually bad, then it can obviously be accomplished. Just don't have gay sex again. Straight people can abstain as it is.First of all, homosexuality is a sexual orientation, not a "lifestyle." Now having gay sex a lot could be considered a lifestyle, but how can you prove there is never a desire to stop doing it?Well, that settles it. Government organizations should be dictated by what is "gross."