Thread: Immigration Reform

Originally Posted by Imperator

I disagree to an extent, I think a fence is part of the process. You MUST stem the flo...., you know, the old stop the bleeding, check the breathing etc etc..

All alone, no fence or psychical barrier will be the complete answer BUT it can make a huge impact and help as we go forward.

We have the technology to build a fence to stop anything, it just boils down to what we whiling to build.

personally i would build a wall tougher than the Berlin wall......landmines, infrared, ground sensors, all the toys..

Originally Posted by States Rights

Was talking to a waitress in Algadonones Mexico (near Yuma AZ). Both her and her husband are Mexican citizens and live in Algadonones but they have a child that was born in the US. She can take her child to the hospital in Yuma and enroll the child in the Head Start Program there.

That does happen in some cases of parents of US citizens. Personally, the parents get no benefit or 'baby anchor' eligibility. It's also key to note that the child is not a legal or illegal immigrant--he/she is a US citizen, unlike her parents. This kind of a situation involves a welfare reform for US citizens with amendments to the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (PRWORA) and other enactments insofar as US citizen minors when their parents do not reside in the US. That should be especially addressed for any cases where the parents might be 'double dipping' by having their children get benefits from the US and the country where their children reside.

I can't believe the marchers still don't get it.

Marching down DC streets under a foreign flag isn't going to make a connection with main street USA.

Originally Posted by SamInTheSouth

I fervently disagree with that. When Bush and McLame were trying to push the whole shamnesty bill through in 2007 polls were showing well over 70% of Americans opposed to what they were trying to do. It's the business and corporate interests as well as politicians that want illegal immigrants here. Businesses want them for cheap labor and politicians want them as the next big voting block and to use as a wedge issue at election time.

hail SamInTheSouth, avast ye!!!

what be it that ye disagree with?

all i noted was that some Americans want illegal immigrants in our country. as ye correctly noted, it be the business and corporate interests that want'm here.

as imma told constantly here on the decks 'o USPO, corporations do not exist to promote the best interest 'o the United States 'o America, they are thar to enrich thar boardmembers and if possible, thar shareholders.
if illegal immigrants are good fer thar bottem line, then they are within' thar rights to pursue favorable legislation (or lack thereof) in congress.

thats freedom, me hearty...freedom and the liberty 'o corporations to go about chasin' thar pursuit 'o happiness.

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by MattInFla

I can't believe the marchers still don't get it.

Marching down DC streets under a foreign flag isn't going to make a connection with main street USA.

CNN.com Live

Originally Posted by SamInTheSouth

My point is that the child is an American citizen for being born here and thus able to suck off of our welfare system and public education system and put a drain on those systems while the parents are still illegal.

See above response to States Rights for part of the solution.

As for US citizens of illegal immigrants who reside in the US, two things can be done: 1) deport the illegal parents for being unlawfully in the country. The children will either remain in the custody of someone else or they will return with the illegal parents to those parents' home country where they can return if they so choose once they reach 18. Most times, the latter is what happens, or 2) pass immigration reform that gets those already here on the books legally and close the border as best as possible with tough laws for illegally entering. The latter is the most practical situation now given all the facts on the ground.

With tens of millions of illegals here and all those children, it turns the drain into an asset. If, for example, a school has 25% children of illegal immigrants, if the parents are legalised with these reforms, then the parents are now paying school taxes like everyone else for that school, plus paying taxes for everything else on the books.

Plenty of those immigrants do pay taxes, but since they cannot collect their refunds, it's just been a cash windfall for whatever other purposes are chosen. For example, it goes into things like the 'earnings suspense file' and here is how the hustle works:

Jul 28, 2007 2:52 pm US/Mountain Illegal Immigrants Are Unlikely To Claim SS Tax $$
Good Question: What Happens To The Social Security Taxes Paid By Illegal Immigrants?
by Alan Gionet
LARIMER COUNTY, Colo. (CBS4) ―

The federal government gets billions of dollars every year that it can't track to anyone. At the end of the tax year when most Americans are filing taxes and seeking returns, illegal immigrants are letting that money go. It's the price of working in a country illegally.

. . .

Some of the withholding taxes are social security and Medicare taxes. In principle, Social Security money is held by the government until retirement, and then paid out as a benefit; you get out after paying in.

But the fact is, those benefits are unlikely ever to go back to the people who paid in and the government is collecting a windfall.

"Well you're breaking the law, but you're helping us as a country," says Polly Baca, a former state senator and current executive director of the non-profit Latin American Research and Service Agency.

The money the Social Security Administration can't associate with anyone goes into what's called the "Earnings suspense file." The Government Accounting Office told us its most recent figures show about seven billion dollars a year end up in the Earnings Suspense file.

. . .

So does the money just sit there? "Oh, I don't see that there's any way that it's not being used," says Baca.

We're into government accounting here, but basically yes. The earnings suspense file is part of the pool of social security trust fund money held -- and borrowed from -- by the government. The government borrows from trust fund money then repays it (again on paper) in things like treasury bonds. So the money goes right back out the door and gets used for all the things the federal government does; fights war, pays for social programs, builds roads, etc. But the money has to be re-paid to the file, lest it not be there when someone comes to claim it. But when money from illegal immigrants comes in under false or stolen identities, they're not likely to come back and claim it.

. . .

Experts like Jones believe the federal government comes out ahead when it comes to illegal immigrants. "For the most part the federal government gets more in the form of tax payments from undocumented workers than they pay out in the form of benefits."

. . .

With Social Security looking at insolvency in the decades ahead, expect debate about the earnings suspense file and whether that money should be held -- on paper -- for people who are unlikely ever to claim it.

Illegal Immigrants Are Unlikely To Claim SS Tax $$ - cbs4denver.com

That's not even getting into income tax refunds on federal, state and local taxes that the governments know won't be collected.

Illegal immigration, quite frankly, is big business for the crooked minded in the private and public sector alike. It's no accident that the 'closed legal/open illegal' situation has existed as it has. The cheaters win, and you and the rest of Joe Public lose and even subsidise the cheaters' prosper.

It's absolutely the fiscally responsible thing for average joes to demand that the situation be reversed. Those here who otherwise are productive and criminal record free (no spongers and criminals) should be legalised. That way, the tax burdens and benefits are properly adjusted. It adds loads of other benefits too such as a safer, more productive and more cohesive society. Legalising them allows them to get up from poverty and be far more productive insofar as paying taxes, spending ability with higher income, creating businesses that create employment and produce things, etc. It allows them to get away from the lures and sanctions of poverty such as broken and poor families, getting involved in crime, being victimised by crime, having better neighbourhood quality and property values, etc. It prevents having a large powerless community for labour exploitation that undercuts legal immigrant and US citizen labour and businesses who want to operate legally and have fair wages and terms, etc.

IMO, the people ought to join forces with the illegals and go after the real culprits here, those in government and business who set this whole situation up in order to get ill-begotten gains screwing everyone else in the scheme. Then, close the border properly. The public should want what Marcus wants...a big wall with a large gate for the productive, namely an 'open legal, closed illegal' system, which is precisely the opposite of what the crooks in society and government have designed to cause the present situation.

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

*shrug* I'm a Christian and an Atheist.

Could you elaborate on that ? (in a separate thread I suppose)
TIA.

Originally Posted by SamInTheSouth

So do you or do you not want all of the evangelicals in this country (you know, all of those stupid rednecks that came out and helped Bush get reelected in 2004 that you people despised) and other Christians coming out and voting based on their religious views or not? Yes or no?

Your baiting question is a common tactic with the left. You scream and bitch about conservatives voting their religious views into office, but then when Christian teachings could possibly support a left wing cause that they oppose you then ridicule them with the tired old "what would Jesus do" line thus inferring that indeed they should be voting based on their religious views.

So which is it?

*shrug* I vote based on what I think is right. That's morality. I don't have a problem with people voting based on morality, it's just their morality that I disagree with.

Originally Posted by MattInFla

I can't believe the marchers still don't get it.

Marching down DC streets under a foreign flag isn't going to make a connection with main street USA.

Yeah, fuck the Irish.

I can't believe that you are so dishonest that you are willing to ignore that American flags at the march outnumbered ALL foreign flags 20 to 1.

Originally Posted by WarOnIgnorance

Could you elaborate on that ? (in a separate thread I suppose)
TIA.

Basically I don't need to believe in God to see the wisdom and correctness in (most of) the teachings of Christ.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

See above response to States Rights for part of the solution.

As for US citizens of illegal immigrants who reside in the US, two things can be done: 1) deport the illegal parents for being unlawfully in the country. The children will either remain in the custody of someone else or they will return with the illegal parents to those parents' home country where they can return if they so choose once they reach 18. Most times, the latter is what happens, or 2) pass immigration reform that gets those already here on the books legally and close the border as best as possible with tough laws for illegally entering. The latter is the most practical situation now given all the facts on the ground.

With tens of millions of illegals here and all those children, it turns the drain into an asset. If, for example, a school has 25% children of illegal immigrants, if the parents are legalised with these reforms, then the parents are now paying school taxes like everyone else for that school, plus paying taxes for everything else on the books.

Plenty of those immigrants do pay taxes, but since they cannot collect their refunds, it's just been a cash windfall for whatever other purposes are chosen. For example, it goes into things like the 'earnings suspense file' and here is how the hustle works:



Illegal Immigrants Are Unlikely To Claim SS Tax $$ - cbs4denver.com

That's not even getting into income tax refunds on federal, state and local taxes that the governments know won't be collected.

Illegal immigration, quite frankly, is big business for the crooked minded in the private and public sector alike. It's no accident that the 'closed legal/open illegal' situation has existed as it has. The cheaters win, and you and the rest of Joe Public lose and even subsidise the cheaters' prosper.

It's absolutely the fiscally responsible thing for average joes to demand that the situation be reversed. Those here who otherwise are productive and criminal record free (no spongers and criminals) should be legalised. That way, the tax burdens and benefits are properly adjusted. It adds loads of other benefits too such as a safer, more productive and more cohesive society. Legalising them allows them to get up from poverty and be far more productive insofar as paying taxes, spending ability with higher income, creating businesses that create employment and produce things, etc. It allows them to get away from the lures and sanctions of poverty such as broken and poor families, getting involved in crime, being victimised by crime, having better neighbourhood quality and property values, etc. It prevents having a large powerless community for labour exploitation that undercuts legal immigrant and US citizen labour and businesses who want to operate legally and have fair wages and terms, etc.

IMO, the people ought to join forces with the illegals and go after the real culprits here, those in government and business who set this whole situation up in order to get ill-begotten gains screwing everyone else in the scheme. Then, close the border properly. The public should want what Marcus wants...a big wall with a large gate for the productive, namely an 'open legal, closed illegal' system, which is precisely the opposite of what the crooks in society and government have designed to cause the present situation.

Something needs to be done to adjust the numbers allowed in and the time it takes for them to get here. Some of the numbers are just coming up for people who have been waiting more than 10 years. IMO, the quotas are arbitrary. It doesn't really matter what they do as to closing the borders, and getting the culprits unless they do something about the counting system itself. They also need to do something about rules that will cause a woman who returns to her country for a baby shower to get stuck there and not be able to return here. That is just stupid. But it can and does happen. We also need to look at who gets political asylum. They lie like rugs. I know a couple of lawyers who practice immigration law who, once the learn the person has lied, will NOT represent them any longer. AND in some cases they keep all the money. That part of the system needs to change also, Just my not so humble opinion.

Here are some pictures from Sunday's demonstration.

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

Here are some pictures from Sunday's demonstration.

And those mean what?

Originally Posted by Steve

And those mean what?

Well, the topic of the thread is immigration reform. Included in that discussion is discussion of Sunday's demonstration. Those were some pictures from Sunday.

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

Well, the topic of the thread is immigration reform. Included in that discussion is discussion of Sunday's demonstration. Those were some pictures from Sunday.

Do you think it would be impossible to cull through the myriad of articles and photos on the web and find pictures with people carrying, say, Mexican flags?