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I think the New Deal's hand in creating the middleclass boom (the Great Compression) showed that our massive corporations, which exist to be so massive through informal partnership with the state (and as the Gilded Age showed, would be just as capable of doing so if the government did nothing except army, police, and courts) creates poverty where it would otherwise not exist and the super-rich where they would otherwise not exist.
You could eliminate all government whatsoever and you wouldn't create a "natural state" of poverty, where the majority of the poor are there by their own doing/faults; because new states would form out of private institutions and powerful individuals, who just as happens in our society put the squeeze on the individual.
MOST people are hardworking folks of merit, with conditions causing most poverty unnecessarily.
There's no way to stop human nature from causing exploitation, but we have developed good ways to compensate for that inherent exploitation; by countering the redistribution of wealth from poor and middle class people to the rich/corporations with a graduated tax scheme and a welfare state that provides social safety nets for all members of society.
Laissez faire did not decrease poverty in the Gilded Age, not even when the nation as a whole got wealthier and wealthier through the interaction of the government with the ultra-wealthy captains of industry.
To reduce poverty, you have to counter the inherently destructive policies of capitalism without undoing the growth and expansion it enables.
Keep in mind that FDR, Eisenhower, and even Carter all improved the economy while Reagan damaged it; though that increase of the amount of Debt per amount of GDP might have been temporarily justified by having the one man who seemed capable of dealing with inflation (which is just as much a problem for Laissez Faire, as it happened during the Gilded Age after all, as it is for progressive economics).
People aren't actually dependent on the rich and the corporations for prosperity; they don't need captains of industry or market forces to save them - they can do it by researching the issues and advancing/voting for good policies.
Some more democracy and a little less of unelected capitalists running our lives would be an improvement and make us more independent; by making the interdependencies inherent to society more equal relationships rather than master/slave relationships.
The Right Wing: Destroying the middle-class and spreading a culture of irresponsibility since '79
I find it disingenuous that between 2007 and 2008 the majority of Conservatives went from supporting a police state to caring about liberty and worrying about tyranny
So, these working poor that I know, get food stamps, make around 18 grand a year and get health care for their kids. And that is it! These other programs they apparently don't qualify for! Because if they did, I am sure they would take advantage of it. Help on electric bills? Not in my area, except through some churches who always have a hook attached to the charity.
The bad thing is, all of these people who are now living below the poverty line, did not always do so. These are some of the victims that resulted from our local factories being sent elsewhere to cheap labor. None of these folks feel good about the gov't dole they get, none. And all are above average in their motivation to work hard. The problem is...no fucking decent paying jobs are now left in my area for people that work for a living. Those left when the factories left. And they left due to changes in gov't policy that no longer looked our for our own workers but started looking out for China's workers instead. And of course stockholders and corporations. It is so obvious it is ridiculous to even mention it.
There is no way in hell that you can send 30 per cent of our industry to China in the last 10 years, and NOT suffer consequences, and these are suffered by the working class Americans. There is a direct cause/effect here. Yet some here still don't "get it". I guess it is easier to just call these disenfranchised folks no account bums.
There will always be a certain percentage of people, who are poor due to environmental and even genetic disposition. Yes, genetic disposition. I never thought genetic disposition ever existed when it comes to morals, or laziness, but I know different as the realization of this hit me hard 3 years ago.
I personally know a man who did not like to work. Instead he would rather steal, and was smart enough to stay out of jail, or lucky enough. This guy had no moral code, yet was raised up in a structured enviroment, a local church run orphanage. He was taught to be morally straight and he was taught to work hard. He got out of the home for children, got a job, and married. He had two girls, ran around on his wife constantly, could not hold a job, and she ran his ass off. She then later on, remarried to a good Christian guy, who was the exact opposite of her first husband. The first husband never saw his children who were both under the age of 3 when he left. SO, they had no contact with him until they got grown. Yet, both girls are EXACTLY LIKE THIS SORRY SOB, BUT EVEN WORSE. Not only do they look like him, they walk like him, talk like him, steal like him, won't work like him, and both have no moral compass. I know these two girls. Or women today as both are in their late 20's. They are identical to their own dad, and never knew him! So don't ever tell me that genetics do not play a role in poverty. I have seen proof with my own eyes. It kinda freaked me out actually, the whole experience, and made me question the environmental model as it pertains to poverty.
Now I think that if one is poor due to genetic reasons, there is no help that can be given to these people, that will actually work. I spent 3 years trying to help both of these girls, along with my wife. Nothing that we did, and we did a lot, ever helped. So there are people out there who are poor, and who will never, ever, help themselves. But, I don't know the percentage, or if one could ever even determine it. But I do know that it does exist. This kind of poor will always be with us, unless you do a move like Hitler, and cull em out, by killing em'.
Last edited by Blue Doggy; 09-19-2010 at 07:18 AM.
I'm always rather incredulous when I hear a liberal say everyone suffering poverty is just an innocent victim in misery ..
.. And I'm also rather incredulous when I hear a conservative say that everyone suffering poverty is doing so by choice and is comfortable in it.
The liberal has his underdog government programs to champion ..
.. And the conservative has his taxes to diminish.
Neither one can be trusted to say what they mean.
Getting to the truth of the matter when both lefties and righties are around .. is extremely difficult.
I'll be more likely to consider an extremist's perspective when I hear the extremist both cop to his true motivation and grant credence to his opponent's position.
Then they'll both be in more of a position to take an honest look at the problem.
They may not like what they see.
But the chances of solving the problem will be greatly increased ..
.. To the benefit of everyone.
There are those who have called me and other NPs who got into it in the early 90s 'visionaries.' Maybe so, I don't really know. But the medicaid changes in the early 90s in TN is what opened this type of work up to people like me. If it were not for those changes I would most likely be the manager of a hospital unit making half what I do now. There have been a lot of nurses who have tried to do what I do and have ended up selling real estate because they could never come to terms with working for the lowest class of people. That alone is a challenge. My patients seem to be appreciative of what I do and I often think of the line from the Fogelberg song And if youve been by paupers crowned Between the worlds of men and Make-believe I can be found.
It seems that once a person is in that cycle of poverty they have trouble ever making it out. That will happen to some in this recession. I know that because every time a factory has closed, I have had patients who come in and announce to me "Well, I'm readly to get my disability." When I ask why I get, "Because I'm tired of working." Well, I never help those to get on disability. Ever. I tell them what I think and that is to start looking around for something to do because they aren't disabled. What they see is that their disability is the same or more than their SS retirement, so why not just stop working now and pretend to be retired. According to Abraham Maslow people will give up their freedom to have security. I have seen that born out ever day of my working life. Once they get that disability check, they know they will have food, shelter, and medical care. Many of them have gotten to a point that they don't need a lot to live on, so they settle.
But there are those who, when the factory closes, just want to survive what they have to go through. They suffer, they hate being on the dole, they are surprised that someone like me is even kind to them. And after a time, they get their lives together and get back to work.
Then there are those who are in generational poverty and if they got out of it they would be leaving the place they grew up (the only home they have ever known), their families, and their friends. Needless to say, they know nothing else, and they don't want anything else. As my son once remarked when the only person they see who has a nice car, nice cloths, and fine jewelry is the pimp, what other choices can you expect them to make?
And of course, you have the ones who are truly disabled, physically or mentally and cannot work. A lot of those people drain far more than their paltry check off society, because they aren't even able to manage that and therefore, have to have a variety of case managers, guardianship companies, etc. involved in their lives on a daily basis, all of which are paid for by the government. So you don't even really see the bigger picture of poverty and what it actually costs the taxpayers. But there are a lot of people who make a decent living wage off of services provided to the poor. If the poor were to go away, so would their jobs.
And then there are those who actually live in state and federal hospitals to the tune of 300 dollars a day. On a yearly basis, that is over 100K/year. This is entirely the result of a system that has enabled such a thing. For the money, the government could put each and every one of them in a private home and provide maid service. Remember Murdock on The A Team? He lived in the VA, was perfectly competent and got out when he had a mission, but he pretended to be crazy so he wouldn't have to work. Do you really think that was fiction? I know of one guy who lived in a VA hospital for 3 years and he wasn't even a veteran. No one bothered to check.
If people on here saw the reality that I have seen over the years you would go into a deep depression and probably never emerge because your mental picture as bad as it is, is not even close to the reality. There are no pat or easy answers as there are many faces to poverty. I don't talk about it much to anyone, on here or anywhere else. And the times I have people just make fun of me and act like I'm putting on airs, so why bother. No one really knows the reality of it and to try and explain the reality of it is futile. They only see the theoretical face of poverty while I see the actual faces of poverty, real people with limitations real or imagined, who come to me every day I work. Over the years, I have just had to accept the limitations of what can be done. Generally my friends in the private aspect of health care don't see how I do what I do. My job is not glamorous, but it pays well and I have gotten myself to a good place where I will retire soon out away from it all and be thankful for everything I have.
Last edited by Sunshine; 09-19-2010 at 09:44 AM.
What, do they have some sort of sorting process when souls are created and there's a big old line saying, "abject poverty, no hope, no support, huge amounts of racial bias, and the shittiest land in the USA? That's what I want!"
Really? Then why do people lay down their lives to save others? Why do parents put their children before themselves? Why do people give of themselves at their own expense all of the time?That's because everyone is an individual, and looks to their own interests before anyone else's. Sometimes exclusively to their own, but always their own first.
And it's never more complicated that individual choice. Some people just wish it was.
Well, not conservatives of course, but I'm talking about fully conscious human beings. People aren't by nature selfish - hyperconservativism makes them that way.
Well, it seems so:Did he?
Or does "love thy neighbor as thyself" mean to you "exploit thy neighbor as a worker and take all his shit?"Originally Posted by the Bible
And, don't forget my personal favorite:
You suppose that what Jesus was really trying to tell humanity was that we should exploit each other, take as much as we can at each others' expense, and accumulate as much wealth as we possibly can at the expense of everyone else?Originally Posted by Matthew 19:23-24 (New International Version)[/quote
Keep posts on topic and not about each other.
In fact do you love your neighbor if you willingly commit them to never grow beyond what they are in the name of "helping them"? No, you do not.
Love thyself you see a lot in there don't you. What does that mean to you?
A rich man can cast about alms to the poor by the truckload, will that earn him entry into the kingdom of heaven? No it will not. ATJ (according to Jesus)
A rich man can give all he has to the church, will that earn him entry into the kingdom of heaven? No it will not. ATJ
A rich man can be miserly and love only his wealth, will that earn him entry into the kingdom of heaven? No it will not. ATJ
Rich people are used to having money solve their problems. It won't solve that one. That's why it's hard for them.
Ever wonder why most conservatives are Christians?
Can you say the same about liberals?
A is A
On one side, yes there is the greed, corruption and exploitation of the many for the gain of a few. This is not "the American way" Mead...unfortunately this is the way of mankind throughout history.
You don't think China is guilty of corruption, greed and doesn't exploit their citizens?
However, on the other side we have an epidemic in this country. An epidemic of complacency, and a society void of personal sacrifice and responsibility. We allowed this to happen to us, we played an equal part. If Americans gave one damn second of thought when they purchased an item, other than it is cheaper, - then companies wouldn't have moved everything off shore to satisfy our voracious appetite for cheap crap.
Last edited by iamwhatiseem; 09-19-2010 at 11:28 AM.
You are the one person in this world who will live according to the choices you make. Live life like there is a tomorrow.
You are the one person in this world who will live according to the choices you make. Live life like there is a tomorrow.