Thread: 1 In 7 In U.S. Lives Below Poverty Line

Originally Posted by SamInTheSouth

Why do we have to do something to fix it? If you're living in "poverty" in this country then more than likely it's your own damn fault.

By the way, unless you're homeless, nobody in the U.S. lives in poverty.

Actually they do. Visit the Navajo reservation sometime.

I can promise you won't enjoy it.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Actually they do. Visit the Navajo reservation sometime.

I can promise you won't enjoy it.

That is very true, but then they are living separate from America by choice.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

We opted for the cheaper goods, and said fuck you to our own working people. I hate you sons of bitches. And the only people I have ever hated. Each time I hear of someone buying Chinese shit at Walmart, I want to slap some sense into their stupid ass heads. Shortsighted, self involved sons of bitches, all of them. SO, some of these folks are getting payback for their actions, when they gave no thought of fellow Americans, when they jumped on those cheap foreign goods.

Hell, I stopped being a happy consumer when I saw the absence of American made products. I buy little these days, and if it has China on it, I don't even consider buying it. If I need something, I go to ebay, and look for a used item, made in America. At least most of the American made things last for longer than 6 months. I sure as hell ain't gonna help out China to build up their military like you stupid fuckers. (rhetorically speaking)

ahoy Blue Doggy!

interestin' post...actually, much that has been scribed in this thread has been compellin' readin', particularly TomBlaze's heartfelt ventin'.

this particular theme on blamin' consumer's fer buyin' chinese products, though, seems to be anger misplaced. also, the idear that products made in china be only to be found in the ports 'o walmart also be errant. heck, i spent $500.00 dollars or so friday night at Bannana Republic...and every article 'o clothin' i purchased was made in china.

capitalism hath nothin' to do with patriotism, or seekin' to do what be best fer one's country...nor does the adherence to a free market economy. corporations are not beholden to the United States 'o America, they answer to thar shareholders. shareholders want thar bottom line to be robust, and thats how our powerful and prosperous and christian nation likes it.

american manufacturin' just cannot compete...and the workers have expectations that no longer can be met. not in a global marketplace, whar the seas be rough.

The average employee at Ever Rich Knitting Garment Co.'s plant near Guangzhou, China, makes $220 a month, which can double during busy seasons.

The pay is minuscule by Western measures. But Mon Xijian, a 31-year-old who has worked at Ever Rich since 1996, has saved enough with his wife, who also works there, to buy a six-unit apartment building back home.

The couple don't recommend the lifestyle. They see their two children -- who live at home with Mon's in-laws 1,200 miles away -- every year or two. Yet Mon far prefers factory work to farming. He's saving to send his son and daughter to college so they can escape both.

"I want them to get as much higher education as possible," said Mon, who irons Columbia garments.

U.S. journalist Leslie Chang followed young Chinese assembly-line workers for her recently published book, "Factory Girls." Chang says money sent home, and migrants moving back, are changing rural China.

Line workers, she says, can earn several times the average $200 annual income of a farm family.

"They're sleeping 12 in a dorm, and it looks like a pretty crappy life," Chang said. "But you don't hear workers say, 'Oh, I have no hope, I'm a slave.' They say, 'I want to save some money. My dream is to be Bill Gates or to own a restaurant.'"

Chinese factory workers cash in sweat for prosperity | OregonLive.com

we just cannot match these people, and all the rantin' and ventin' one does won't change this reality...we're just outta our depth.

on top 'o all 'o this, the chinese are just smarter than thar american counterparts, at least measured in thar literacy, math and science skills.

i feel fer the good TomBlaze's predicament. he was just born into the wrong era, but i have no counsel to give, other than dramatically downsizin' the lifestyle that he believed his career would deliver unto him.

aye.

- MeadHallPirate

I think the New Deal's hand in creating the middleclass boom (the Great Compression) showed that our massive corporations, which exist to be so massive through informal partnership with the state (and as the Gilded Age showed, would be just as capable of doing so if the government did nothing except army, police, and courts) creates poverty where it would otherwise not exist and the super-rich where they would otherwise not exist.

You could eliminate all government whatsoever and you wouldn't create a "natural state" of poverty, where the majority of the poor are there by their own doing/faults; because new states would form out of private institutions and powerful individuals, who just as happens in our society put the squeeze on the individual.

MOST people are hardworking folks of merit, with conditions causing most poverty unnecessarily.

There's no way to stop human nature from causing exploitation, but we have developed good ways to compensate for that inherent exploitation; by countering the redistribution of wealth from poor and middle class people to the rich/corporations with a graduated tax scheme and a welfare state that provides social safety nets for all members of society.

Laissez faire did not decrease poverty in the Gilded Age, not even when the nation as a whole got wealthier and wealthier through the interaction of the government with the ultra-wealthy captains of industry.

To reduce poverty, you have to counter the inherently destructive policies of capitalism without undoing the growth and expansion it enables.

Keep in mind that FDR, Eisenhower, and even Carter all improved the economy while Reagan damaged it; though that increase of the amount of Debt per amount of GDP might have been temporarily justified by having the one man who seemed capable of dealing with inflation (which is just as much a problem for Laissez Faire, as it happened during the Gilded Age after all, as it is for progressive economics).

People aren't actually dependent on the rich and the corporations for prosperity; they don't need captains of industry or market forces to save them - they can do it by researching the issues and advancing/voting for good policies.

Some more democracy and a little less of unelected capitalists running our lives would be an improvement and make us more independent; by making the interdependencies inherent to society more equal relationships rather than master/slave relationships.

Originally Posted by lutherf

Of course you would. It's ever so much easier to work up a good froth when you pick and choose the standards by which you shall pass judgment on certain issues.

The 2009 poverty guideline for the 48 contiguous states is $22,050 for a family of four. That, no doubt, gives little room for luxuries but consider this -

- I just ran numbers through Arizonaslefhelp.org based on a single person 30 years old with 3 children under the age of 10. This person was assumed to make just over $21k/yr and rent an apartment for $525.00/mo (reasonable in this area). Here's what this person would be eligible for in assistance:
1. Food stamps (SNAP) - $348.47/mo
2. School lunch program for children
3. Full health care services through AHCCCS
4. Federal housing assistance (Section 8)
5. Assistance with utility bills (LIHEAP)
6. Assistance with water bills
7. Discounted phone service through Qwest
8. Reduced fares on public transportation
9. Up to a 30% discount on gas and electric through local utility providers
10. Child care assistance
11. Earned Income Tax Credit
12. Additional Child Tax Credit
***The EITC and ACTC for this person would total nearly $7,400 plus, in 2009, they would have received an additional $400 "Making Work Pay" credit
13. This person would be eligible for an Individual Development Account which would match, dollar for dollar, any savings to be used toward an asset purchase or education

So let's do the math here. This person living under the poverty level and making a mere $21,000/yr would have to pay $1600 in SS/Med and rent of $6300 leaving disposable income of $13,100.00.

Now, let's start adding in benefits.
1. Add SNAP of $4181.64=$17,281.64
2. Add school lunch program valued at (estimate) $5/day per kid ($15/day for 5 days /wk and 40 weeks/yr = $3000.00) $17,281.64 + $3000.00 = $20,281.64
3. Add in health care services (estimate insurance would cost $500/mo. I'll leave out the benefit of not having co-pays) Health care benefits come to $6000.00/yr. $20,281.64 + $6,000.00 = $26,281.64
4. I won't add in Section 8 assistance. Although this person would be eligible they would also be at the high limit of eligibility.
5. Add in assistance with utility bills including gas, electric, water and phone. (estimate $50/mo in assistance) $26,281.64 + $600.00 = $26,881.64
6. Assume that child care benefits aren't needed because family members are available
7. Add in tax credits $26,881.64 + $7,794.00 = $34,675.64

Did you follow all that? We started with $21,000.00, backed out taxes AND rent then added in benefits which amounted to 65% of this persons gross wages. Keep in mind that we didn't even use all the credits that were available and we completely skipped over educational benefits and savings benefits which could easily have doubled the original wages.

This "poor" person would have disposable income of nearly $3,000.00 per month.

Yeah, sure sucks to be poor in America.:rolleyes:

I am simply astounded. Astounded because I personally know several people, who work, are married, each with a couple of small children, and who fall under the 22 grand in income. Granted, the children up to a certain age can get health care, but not the adults in the family, so they have no health benefits. None, zip nada, zero. Also none of these working poor get any help except for food stamps which I think is dependent upon the income.

So, these working poor that I know, get food stamps, make around 18 grand a year and get health care for their kids. And that is it! These other programs they apparently don't qualify for! Because if they did, I am sure they would take advantage of it. Help on electric bills? Not in my area, except through some churches who always have a hook attached to the charity.

The bad thing is, all of these people who are now living below the poverty line, did not always do so. These are some of the victims that resulted from our local factories being sent elsewhere to cheap labor. None of these folks feel good about the gov't dole they get, none. And all are above average in their motivation to work hard. The problem is...no fucking decent paying jobs are now left in my area for people that work for a living. Those left when the factories left. And they left due to changes in gov't policy that no longer looked our for our own workers but started looking out for China's workers instead. And of course stockholders and corporations. It is so obvious it is ridiculous to even mention it.

There is no way in hell that you can send 30 per cent of our industry to China in the last 10 years, and NOT suffer consequences, and these are suffered by the working class Americans. There is a direct cause/effect here. Yet some here still don't "get it". I guess it is easier to just call these disenfranchised folks no account bums.

There will always be a certain percentage of people, who are poor due to environmental and even genetic disposition. Yes, genetic disposition. I never thought genetic disposition ever existed when it comes to morals, or laziness, but I know different as the realization of this hit me hard 3 years ago.

I personally know a man who did not like to work. Instead he would rather steal, and was smart enough to stay out of jail, or lucky enough. This guy had no moral code, yet was raised up in a structured enviroment, a local church run orphanage. He was taught to be morally straight and he was taught to work hard. He got out of the home for children, got a job, and married. He had two girls, ran around on his wife constantly, could not hold a job, and she ran his ass off. She then later on, remarried to a good Christian guy, who was the exact opposite of her first husband. The first husband never saw his children who were both under the age of 3 when he left. SO, they had no contact with him until they got grown. Yet, both girls are EXACTLY LIKE THIS SORRY SOB, BUT EVEN WORSE. Not only do they look like him, they walk like him, talk like him, steal like him, won't work like him, and both have no moral compass. I know these two girls. Or women today as both are in their late 20's. They are identical to their own dad, and never knew him! So don't ever tell me that genetics do not play a role in poverty. I have seen proof with my own eyes. It kinda freaked me out actually, the whole experience, and made me question the environmental model as it pertains to poverty.

Now I think that if one is poor due to genetic reasons, there is no help that can be given to these people, that will actually work. I spent 3 years trying to help both of these girls, along with my wife. Nothing that we did, and we did a lot, ever helped. So there are people out there who are poor, and who will never, ever, help themselves. But, I don't know the percentage, or if one could ever even determine it. But I do know that it does exist. This kind of poor will always be with us, unless you do a move like Hitler, and cull em out, by killing em'.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

The problem is...no fucking decent paying jobs are now left in my area for people that work for a living. Those left when the factories left. And they left due to changes in gov't policy that no longer looked our for our own workers but started looking out for China's workers instead. And of course stockholders and corporations. It is so obvious it is ridiculous to even mention it.

There is no way in hell that you can send 30 per cent of our industry to China in the last 10 years, and NOT suffer consequences, and these are suffered by the working class Americans. There is a direct cause/effect here. Yet some here still don't "get it". I guess it is easier to just call these disenfranchised folks no account bums.

*shakes his noggin'*

good mornin' Blue Doggy!

mate, regardin' the bolded part 'o yer statements...stockholders and corporations must be free to make whatever choices that line thar pockets with the most monies, and if sendin' industry to china furthers this cause, then so bet it. thats the american way, me friend. the "workin' class Americans", accordin' to conservatives, are of no account. afterall, as imma told often here on USPO, when was the last time a "workin' class American" gave you a job?

the most important course to chart will be the one that makes the richest Americans even richer! if we can make them wealthy Americans rich enough, they might create a job fer folks in yer region.


- MeadHallPirate

I'm always rather incredulous when I hear a liberal say everyone suffering poverty is just an innocent victim in misery ..

.. And I'm also rather incredulous when I hear a conservative say that everyone suffering poverty is doing so by choice and is comfortable in it.

The liberal has his underdog government programs to champion ..

.. And the conservative has his taxes to diminish.

Neither one can be trusted to say what they mean.

Getting to the truth of the matter when both lefties and righties are around .. is extremely difficult.

I'll be more likely to consider an extremist's perspective when I hear the extremist both cop to his true motivation and grant credence to his opponent's position.

Then they'll both be in more of a position to take an honest look at the problem.

They may not like what they see.

But the chances of solving the problem will be greatly increased ..

.. To the benefit of everyone.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Go to a county health department, I doubt seriously most of the ones around the country are much different. And just stay there for a few hours and observe what you see coming in.

I doubt very many liberals will tell you they support bums who don't want to work. But the same ones who will tell you that won't bother to take any time to see what it is they are supporting.

Sunshine if I'm not mistaken stated she works or has worked at a HD. My wife does, and one girl I graduated with does in Virginia. The stories are all pretty much the same.

Don't take my word for it, go see yourself. I don't think you'll be very pleased with what you find.

You are correct 9aces. With the exception of 1 year that I worked at Vanderbilt, my entire career as been working in public health. Not always a health department, but in various types of public health to include, state and federal facilities, prisons, etc. I spent 3 years working in the projects in Nashville. I went to every project there and in the high rises they gave me an office so patients could come to me, but in the low rises, I had to go to individual homes. I wish I could say there is one good answer to poverty in the US, but I really can't. The interesting thing too, is that some of the people I saw in the prisons were people I had already seen in the community.

There are those who have called me and other NPs who got into it in the early 90s 'visionaries.' Maybe so, I don't really know. But the medicaid changes in the early 90s in TN is what opened this type of work up to people like me. If it were not for those changes I would most likely be the manager of a hospital unit making half what I do now. There have been a lot of nurses who have tried to do what I do and have ended up selling real estate because they could never come to terms with working for the lowest class of people. That alone is a challenge. My patients seem to be appreciative of what I do and I often think of the line from the Fogelberg song And if youve been by paupers crowned Between the worlds of men and Make-believe I can be found.

It seems that once a person is in that cycle of poverty they have trouble ever making it out. That will happen to some in this recession. I know that because every time a factory has closed, I have had patients who come in and announce to me "Well, I'm readly to get my disability." When I ask why I get, "Because I'm tired of working." Well, I never help those to get on disability. Ever. I tell them what I think and that is to start looking around for something to do because they aren't disabled. What they see is that their disability is the same or more than their SS retirement, so why not just stop working now and pretend to be retired. According to Abraham Maslow people will give up their freedom to have security. I have seen that born out ever day of my working life. Once they get that disability check, they know they will have food, shelter, and medical care. Many of them have gotten to a point that they don't need a lot to live on, so they settle.

But there are those who, when the factory closes, just want to survive what they have to go through. They suffer, they hate being on the dole, they are surprised that someone like me is even kind to them. And after a time, they get their lives together and get back to work.

Then there are those who are in generational poverty and if they got out of it they would be leaving the place they grew up (the only home they have ever known), their families, and their friends. Needless to say, they know nothing else, and they don't want anything else. As my son once remarked when the only person they see who has a nice car, nice cloths, and fine jewelry is the pimp, what other choices can you expect them to make?

And of course, you have the ones who are truly disabled, physically or mentally and cannot work. A lot of those people drain far more than their paltry check off society, because they aren't even able to manage that and therefore, have to have a variety of case managers, guardianship companies, etc. involved in their lives on a daily basis, all of which are paid for by the government. So you don't even really see the bigger picture of poverty and what it actually costs the taxpayers. But there are a lot of people who make a decent living wage off of services provided to the poor. If the poor were to go away, so would their jobs.

And then there are those who actually live in state and federal hospitals to the tune of 300 dollars a day. On a yearly basis, that is over 100K/year. This is entirely the result of a system that has enabled such a thing. For the money, the government could put each and every one of them in a private home and provide maid service. Remember Murdock on The A Team? He lived in the VA, was perfectly competent and got out when he had a mission, but he pretended to be crazy so he wouldn't have to work. Do you really think that was fiction? I know of one guy who lived in a VA hospital for 3 years and he wasn't even a veteran. No one bothered to check.

If people on here saw the reality that I have seen over the years you would go into a deep depression and probably never emerge because your mental picture as bad as it is, is not even close to the reality. There are no pat or easy answers as there are many faces to poverty. I don't talk about it much to anyone, on here or anywhere else. And the times I have people just make fun of me and act like I'm putting on airs, so why bother. No one really knows the reality of it and to try and explain the reality of it is futile. They only see the theoretical face of poverty while I see the actual faces of poverty, real people with limitations real or imagined, who come to me every day I work. Over the years, I have just had to accept the limitations of what can be done. Generally my friends in the private aspect of health care don't see how I do what I do. My job is not glamorous, but it pays well and I have gotten myself to a good place where I will retire soon out away from it all and be thankful for everything I have.

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

*shakes his noggin'*

good mornin' Blue Doggy!

mate, regardin' the bolded part 'o yer statements...stockholders and corporations must be free to make whatever choices that line thar pockets with the most monies, and if sendin' industry to china furthers this cause, then so bet it. thats the american way, me friend. the "workin' class Americans", accordin' to conservatives, are of no account. afterall, as imma told often here on USPO, when was the last time a "workin' class American" gave you a job?

the most important course to chart will be the one that makes the richest Americans even richer! if we can make them wealthy Americans rich enough, they might create a job fer folks in yer region.


- MeadHallPirate

Damn, MHP, that was harsh.

Completely true, but harsh.

Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem

That is very true, but then they are living separate from America by choice.

So children born into that abject poverty chose to be born there?

What, do they have some sort of sorting process when souls are created and there's a big old line saying, "abject poverty, no hope, no support, huge amounts of racial bias, and the shittiest land in the USA? That's what I want!"

:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by 9aces

Not assumptions, facts based upon many years of observations.

the fact that YOU think you saw something and made an assumption about it doesn't make it a fact.

That's because everyone is an individual, and looks to their own interests before anyone else's. Sometimes exclusively to their own, but always their own first.

And it's never more complicated that individual choice. Some people just wish it was.

Really? Then why do people lay down their lives to save others? Why do parents put their children before themselves? Why do people give of themselves at their own expense all of the time?



Well, not conservatives of course, but I'm talking about fully conscious human beings. People aren't by nature selfish - hyperconservativism makes them that way.

Did he?

Well, it seems so:

Originally Posted by the Bible

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Or does "love thy neighbor as thyself" mean to you "exploit thy neighbor as a worker and take all his shit?"

And, don't forget my personal favorite:

Originally Posted by Matthew 19:23-24 (New International Version)[/quote

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

You suppose that what Jesus was really trying to tell humanity was that we should exploit each other, take as much as we can at each others' expense, and accumulate as much wealth as we possibly can at the expense of everyone else?

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I'm always rather incredulous when I hear a liberal say everyone suffering poverty is just an innocent victim in misery ..

.. And I'm also rather incredulous when I hear a conservative say that everyone suffering poverty is doing so by choice and is comfortable in it.

The liberal has his underdog government programs to champion ..

.. And the conservative has his taxes to diminish.

Neither one can be trusted to say what they mean.

Getting to the truth of the matter when both lefties and righties are around .. is extremely difficult.

I'll be more likely to consider an extremist's perspective when I hear the extremist both cop to his true motivation and grant credence to his opponent's position.

Then they'll both be in more of a position to take an honest look at the problem.

They may not like what they see.

But the chances of solving the problem will be greatly increased ..

.. To the benefit of everyone.

As a screaming liberal, I would never say that everyone in poverty is an innocent victim. Clearly there are choices that some make to live a certain way. But, many who live in poverty are either unable to escape or suffering from mental afflictions which preclude their success as well.

Keep posts on topic and not about each other.