Thread: 1 In 7 In U.S. Lives Below Poverty Line

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

More Americans living in poverty - U.S. news - Life - msnbc.com



Valid question.

Another good question is what do we do to fix it?

As for blame, I think I can safely say that it is mainly due to competition with 3rd-world slave labor (blue and white collar) along with bad lending practices leading people to buy houses they cannot afford forcing many to lean on credit cards to pay for basic needs with no means to really pay it back and, of course corporate greed and decades worth of corruption in our legislature (bi-partisan blame there).

To fix it.....I defer to the forum before I formulate an opinion.

I think you covered most of the causes there.

How do you fix it? Answer - who knows. I think government has done much too good a job creating the poor, and has too much of a vested interest in keeping large numbers of them to support their corruption for anything it does to fix it.

If they get out of the way and drastically slash spending and taxes, maybe. I don't see that happening either.

Blame the inventors of govt entitlements.

The cause for an increase in poverty from 2008 to 2009 is not labor in other countries. The obvious cause is the recession.

On a related note, I have no problem with free trade.

Originally Posted by chassisman

Blame the inventors of govt entitlements.

I will admit welfare is broken but would it not be fair to say that we should have programs in place to help those poor who are willing to work towards being financially independent? For the ones who just sit on their ass collecting checks with no intention of getting educated and obtaining gainful employment, we should take their kids away and hang them out to dry.

I am talking about programs like useful job training that include learning how to use a computer, a safe place where poor kids can get a quality education, give them government jobs at a fair wage so we get something out of the money we spend oto get them back on track, forming partnerships with private companies and small business who can provide real jobs to these people when they sucessfully complete their training.....

Ya know common sense stuff like that.

As far as the already educated people who were once gainfully employed and have lifestyles that can no longer be supported by the money corporate America is willing to pay.....I have no good anser at the moment.

I gave the answer over a week ago

Recovery Summer - Poverty Makes A Comeback

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

I will admit welfare is broken but would it not be fair to say that we should have programs in place to help those poor who are willing to work towards being financially independent? For the ones who just sit on their ass collecting checks with no intention of getting educated and obtaining gainful employment, we should take their kids away and hang them out to dry.

Amen. However the bleeding heart liberals will tell you that your solution is unfair, as those parents deserve the right to raise their kids and you pay for it as your duty to society. Never mind that they don't actually give a rat's ass about the kids, but they're useful pawns.

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

I am talking about programs like useful job training that include learning how to use a computer, a safe place where poor kids can get a quality education, give them government jobs at a fair wage so we get something out of the money we spend oto get them back on track, forming partnerships with private companies and small business who can provide real jobs to these people when they sucessfully complete their training.....

Poor kids can get a quality education now. Safe? Well now that's another story, again that would require measures that would be causing you to infringe upon someone's right to be scum.

As for giving them government jobs, a person given something that has no value, will not value it. Forming partnerships, apprentice programs (we still had those when I was in school and they worked) and that sort of thing are excellent ideas.

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

Ya know common sense stuff like that.

It'd be nice if common sense and our government got acquainted.

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

As far as the already educated people who were once gainfully employed and have lifestyles that can no longer be supported by the money corporate America is willing to pay.....I have no good anser at the moment.

It's called scaling back your lifestyle. No one is entitled to their current economic status just because they have it now. It takes work to keep it, or improve on it.

And sometimes that work just isn't enough. That's life.

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

I will admit welfare is broken but would it not be fair to say that we should have programs in place to help those poor who are willing to work towards being financially independent? For the ones who just sit on their ass collecting checks with no intention of getting educated and obtaining gainful employment, we should take their kids away and hang them out to dry.

I am talking about programs like useful job training that include learning how to use a computer, a safe place where poor kids can get a quality education, give them government jobs at a fair wage so we get something out of the money we spend oto get them back on track, forming partnerships with private companies and small business who can provide real jobs to these people when they sucessfully complete their training.....

Ya know common sense stuff like that.

As far as the already educated people who were once gainfully employed and have lifestyles that can no longer be supported by the money corporate America is willing to pay.....I have no good anser at the moment.

The ONLY people that deserve entitlements are the physically and mentally handicapped. Everyone has a right to an education, so ending up poor because they didn't take advantage of that education is just too bad. If job and skills training is made available on the taxpayer dollar, it should be available to everyone.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

I will admit welfare is broken but would it not be fair to say that we should have programs in place to help those poor who are willing to work towards being financially independent? For the ones who just sit on their ass collecting checks with no intention of getting educated and obtaining gainful employment, we should take their kids away and hang them out to dry.

Amen. However the bleeding heart liberals will tell you that your solution is unfair, as those parents deserve the right to raise their kids and you pay for it as your duty to society. Never mind that they don't actually give a rat's ass about the kids, but they're useful pawns.

There's broad agreement about getting people to work and not subsidizing people who purposely are just seeking to take advantage and not have to work. That's why we had welfare reform in the 90's. I haven't heard much about what the requirements are (especially as I think it varies state by state), but I think generally there are a lot of restrictions about what you need to do such as going applying to x amount of jobs and x amount of interviews, or getting job training or education, all documented, as well as limits on how much you can collect (like 2 years in a row maximum, 5 years lifetime). As far as determining who is "just sitting around", this is about as much as you can do. How else do you make that determination, practically speaking? It's easy to say who you want the money to go to, but harder in practice.

I tend to believe the issue is overblown, and is nothing more than a popular topic to get people outraged and make them believe that a significant portion of their tax dollars are just going to some bums. And certainly the caricature of liberals as wanting to support bums is inaccurate. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who holds that position.

Originally Posted by chassisman

The ONLY people that deserve entitlements are the physically and mentally handicapped. Everyone has a right to an education, so ending up poor because they didn't take advantage of that education is just too bad. If job and skills training is made available on the taxpayer dollar, it should be available to everyone.

Wow, I'm waiting for the ground to open up and swallow me, but I can't believe I'm about to say this: I actually agree with chassisman! That must be a first huh? You're quite right though. Although I sit very much on the left side of the fence, I have long objected to govt hand-outs to people who have been given all the necessary opportunities but for a variety of reasons have chosen to not use them and instead live off the govt. In this day and age there is no excuse for poverty in rich nations. People can get jobs, even if it means working in a dodgy burger joint whilst you look for something better. People can do without tvs and electronic gadgets if it means paying rent, etc. The problem is that some people have traded the roles of "wants" and "needs". People seem more prepared to go into debt, or not get themselves out of debt or poverty, if it means that they would have to go without some things, or change the way they live. If I were in a poverty situation I would make some drastic short-term changes to enable me to get myself out of that situation. I think today though that too many people don't see the need to do that as the hand-outs are reasonable compensation for a lifestyle they have become accustomed to.

Originally Posted by chassisman

The ONLY people that deserve entitlements are the physically and mentally handicapped. Everyone has a right to an education, so ending up poor because they didn't take advantage of that education is just too bad. If job and skills training is made available on the taxpayer dollar, it should be available to everyone.

And when they're not available to everyone?

Originally Posted by noahath

Wow, I'm waiting for the ground to open up and swallow me, but I can't believe I'm about to say this: I actually agree with chassisman! That must be a first huh? You're quite right though. Although I sit very much on the left side of the fence, I have long objected to govt hand-outs to people who have been given all the necessary opportunities but for a variety of reasons have chosen to not use them and instead live off the govt. In this day and age there is no excuse for poverty in rich nations. People can get jobs, even if it means working in a dodgy burger joint whilst you look for something better. People can do without tvs and electronic gadgets if it means paying rent, etc. The problem is that some people have traded the roles of "wants" and "needs". People seem more prepared to go into debt, or not get themselves out of debt or poverty, if it means that they would have to go without some things, or change the way they live. If I were in a poverty situation I would make some drastic short-term changes to enable me to get myself out of that situation. I think today though that too many people don't see the need to do that as the hand-outs are reasonable compensation for a lifestyle they have become accustomed to.

Now that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted by chassisman

The ONLY people that deserve entitlements are the physically and mentally handicapped. Everyone has a right to an education, so ending up poor because they didn't take advantage of that education is just too bad. If job and skills training is made available on the taxpayer dollar, it should be available to everyone.

So you are saying a child who had the misfortune of being born to deadbeat parent an diving in a trailer park or ghetto should just accept the fact that the best they will ever see in life is pumping gas or gangbanging and have little to no access to quality education? That they should grow up fearful of walking to school because some of the other kids sneak firearms past the metal detectors?

Poverty breeds crime and reduces the quality of life for everyone poor and wealthy. In 2007 all my friends were employed, now I am the only one left with a job and that job is in grave danger of being sent to China. It won't be long before I am collecting unemployment. I adamantly refuse to lower my quality of life. I do not live large by any stretch. I live in a studio apartment, I have a modest, fuel efficient, practical vehicle and few luxuries such as a Xbox and a MacBook Pro (also used for my job and side business).

My friends are struggling. They are falling deeper and deeper into debt. Not once in their lives did they ever have to collect unemployment and now they are facing serious problems coming down the pike. There's no work. What is available is not enough to sustain their very modest lifestyles. Should they just live in the street? When I lose my job should I just move into a shelter and wash dishes to get by? Sell all my stuff and have nothing?

I am a 15 year veteran in my career. I am damn good at what I do and there is no way I am going to scrub toilets, sweep floors, cut grass, or deliver pizza for a living. I am not going to reinvent myself and take a 30% pay cut to start anew. I earned my chops. I did those gross jobs to get by while I built the necessary skills and experience to succeed in my chosen profession and I outright demand that my government do something to ensure that my career is secure and not threatened by 3rd-world slave labor.

I would first take up arms and see this country torn apart through civil war because I will not go quietly into the night and see all that I have worked for get thrown in the garbage so some rich, undeserving asshole can rent an entire hotel for his spoiled, bitch of a daughter's sweet 16 party. FUCK THAT! Not on my watch. No fucking way.

/end rant

I should have deleted that but I had to vent...may as well share. I think it is safe to say we all agree that there is a better way to handle welfare...but....more on topic....my topic.....the one I derailed....

So adjusting entitlements to be more effective is a good start but what else can be done to stave off this decline in quality of life for those who were always productive citizens and getting closer to the poverty line?

There is one parameter that should be followed: Asking people to accept scaling back lifestyles that they rightfully earned for themselves is off limits.

Originally Posted by Timofmars

There's broad agreement about getting people to work and not subsidizing people who purposely are just seeking to take advantage and not have to work. That's why we had welfare reform in the 90's. I haven't heard much about what the requirements are (especially as I think it varies state by state), but I think generally there are a lot of restrictions about what you need to do such as going applying to x amount of jobs and x amount of interviews, or getting job training or education, all documented, as well as limits on how much you can collect (like 2 years in a row maximum, 5 years lifetime). As far as determining who is "just sitting around", this is about as much as you can do. How else do you make that determination, practically speaking? It's easy to say who you want the money to go to, but harder in practice.

I tend to believe the issue is overblown, and is nothing more than a popular topic to get people outraged and make them believe that a significant portion of their tax dollars are just going to some bums. And certainly the caricature of liberals as wanting to support bums is inaccurate. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who holds that position.

Go to a county health department, I doubt seriously most of the ones around the country are much different. And just stay there for a few hours and observe what you see coming in.

I doubt very many liberals will tell you they support bums who don't want to work. But the same ones who will tell you that won't bother to take any time to see what it is they are supporting.

Sunshine if I'm not mistaken stated she works or has worked at a HD. My wife does, and one girl I graduated with does in Virginia. The stories are all pretty much the same.

Don't take my word for it, go see yourself. I don't think you'll be very pleased with what you find.