Thread: NBC and the "Pledge of Allegiance"

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

I have absolutely no problem with anyone who is respectful to others, regardless of their beliefs.

What's funny is that I have a born-again Christian friend who is black (next door neighbor) and we get along great. I have another friend who converted to Islam when he married his Muslim wife and we have great conversations about politics and life.

They all agree that god should not be a part of the pledge. Simply because matters of god belong in the home or designated structure of worship and not in government.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Originally Posted by jpn

You're half way to the truth.

Why shouldn't a athlete thank God for the gifts gave them?

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

What's funny is that I have a born-again Christian friend who is black (next door neighbor) and we get along great. I have another friend who converted to Islam when he married his Muslim wife and we have great conversations about politics and life.

They all agree that god should not be a part of the pledge. Simply because matters of god belong in the home or designated structure of worship and not in government.

I honestly don't think that "under God" or "in God we trust" means that the government is involved in religion. In reality, they are only words that really mean nothing to a non-believer while to a believer, they can mean a lot. And if we're all completely honest about it, we don't look that closely at the bills beyond the denomination as we pull it from our wallets.
How often do you say the Pledge of Allegiance? I may say it once a year at my granddaughter's school and in the past 25 years, I've probably said it a total of 10 times. In other words, those who wish to change tradition are mostly just being vindictive.

It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. - Abraham Lincoln, still making Democrats cringe

Lincoln making Democrats hysterical

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

I honestly don't think that "under God" or "in God we trust" means that the government is involved in religion. In reality, they are only words that really mean nothing to a non-believer while to a believer, they can mean a lot. And if we're all completely honest about it, we don't look that closely at the bills beyond the denomination as we pull it from our wallets.
How often do you say the Pledge of Allegiance? I may say it once a year at my granddaughter's school and in the past 25 years, I've probably said it a total of 10 times. In other words, those who wish to change tradition are mostly just being vindictive.

Hi Mrs M. Louisiana Lady? Sorry if I remember incorrectly.

I respectfully disagree.

The push by a Congress with no appeal from the public to institute the phrase "under God" when the SCOTUS had years before ruled that such a Pledge was an unconstitutional violation to force children to adhere to, was a specifically religious minded bent against the Soviet Union, whose so called atheistic universe only applied to the early years but was quite clear by the time of Stalin to have adopted the Orthodox Russian Church as the only applicable religion for the people to support, clearly shows that the U.S. Congress circumvented the first amendment to apply a respect for a religious establishment.

So those of us, like myself, who oppose the Pledge do so because it was a clear cut move of propaganda by the US Congress. I would also impose upon the respect of others in stating that the common public belief that the pledge is an honorary for our troops is also misleading. The common argument is that the Pledge supports our troops which have died for our freedoms. Any basic survey of U.S. history would show that the vast majority of US military engagement is not for our freedoms. The US military was not involved for the freedoms of African Americans and other minorities. They certainly played a role in that the the US government preceded the Civil Rights movement in integration but that leaves out the women's rights movement which the US military had no role in playing. Also, given this fact, that the US military besides the War of 1812 and World War II was not engaged in the protecting the American people from an outside aggressor in taking away our freedoms it is rather absurd to believe that the US military protects our freedom in active military engagements.

I do respect the military. I tried to join but they denied me upon physical health grounds which was probably for the better given my mental health grounds. I do not respect the pledge in any sense. I grew up in a generation in which my friends and out fathers served in Vietnam. Nothing from that war serves to the notion that we should respect the Pledge based upon the common argument that it respects our troops. One friend had an abusive step-father who suffered severe PTSD from Vietnam and proceeded to disfigure his mothers face permanently. Another had a father who refused to discuss his role as a Medi-Vac pilot because it disturbed him too much. He has a flag flying outside his house at all times and proceeds with proper flag protocols but is a devout Democrat who opposes such nonsense as a Pledge in schools. The rest of us grew up with fathers who are just happy that they served there obligatory military time in a time frame in which they were out before the Vietnam War or did not have to serve.

Given the relatively few instances in which our troops have actually served to protect our freedoms, namely against an aggressive British Empire which nobody today remembers or WWII, all the other military actions were not for our freedoms.

So why should I, or anyone else, consider that giving a pledge which most other nations do not have because they find the notion ridiculous an appropriate display of patriotism when I believe that arguing that the people of our nation fight against a government which has deemed it necessary to erode our civil rights and send our troops off to fight foreign wars a far more exemplary display of patriotism?

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

I guess because I've been in my town for 50 years, I've been able to observe the changes that have taken place. The town has always been a "bedroom community" of New Orleans, a place where people moved to because it was family oriented, crime was minimal, etc. Everyone knew everyone either from school or church and we took great pride in the "purity" of the community. When video poker came along, we quickly voted it out, not because we were "church" people but because with casinos and poker places comes things like pawn shops and considering what happened to Gulfport's and Biloxi's main strips, we really did want to have that here. Of course, the businesses that had poker machines in them were pissed, claiming that churches forced them out of business when in truth, it was just the people of the community who voted to remain family friendly.
In this same community, there were holiday greetings of all kinds, including "Happy Holidays", "Season's Greetings" and "Merry Christmas" but the point is that "Merry Christmas" is no longer written on shop windows for the fear of offending someone. Part of it, I blame on the parenting of today...kids don't learn how to handle being chosen last for the softball game, if one gets a Valentine's Day card in their little bag, they all have to get one, birthday party invitations can't be passed out at school because if a kid isn't invited, his feeling will be hurt....in other words, we raising a bunch of social wimps. I grew up in a time when it was "put your big girl panties on and deal with it" and we should go back to that instead of being offended by every little thing.
As for prayer in school, I don't think it's such a big deal either way but I see no reason to feel uncomfortable if one is not religious. Does it really hurt to sit quietly for a minute or two out of respect for others who do pray? I've attended Catholic services before and being raised in the Baptist faith, I disagree with much of the Catholic religion. I wasn't offended during their "prayers" which were nothing more than repeating Psalms 23 (I believe in praying from the heart, not reciting "God is great, God is good..."). Nothing they did "offended" me because I respect that they were following their beliefs so when it came to all the kneeling they do, I sat quietly in my seat and let them do their thing. I also don't believe in calling a priest "Father" but rather than show disrespect, I just don't address him by any name even though I dealt with them in nursing for years. I learned at a young age that one can be offended by the little things only if one allows himself to be.

Mrs M, I hope you know I respect you, and I grew up in the Northwest end of the same sate as you about 10 yrs earlier.

First I would say about respecting others as they pray, would you want your children attending a school that opened every day with a Hindu chant? Or a declaration such as "Allah is great"? It isn't a matter of respecting others but respecting the fact that we all have different views. I was raised in the Southern Baptist tradition, and I hated it. As an adult I became an Episcopalian and I am very comfortable in the catholic tradition (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican) but I don't think for a minute that the rest of the country should conform to the "Book of Common Prayer". Personally, I don't think religion has a place in a secular government as an official policy. I don't care about what the money says, and it's perfectly OK with me if the president says "so help me God" , or as we agreed in a different thread that the military should have chaplains. But I have noticed since the 80's a movement that seems to take offence to the slightest question of Christianity (usually evangelical) or it's place in government. I also began hearing in the 80's this revisionist declaration that we were a "Christian Nation" (though MLK did make that declaration in a different contex). And I believe this business about "Merry Christmas" is greatly overstated. If one does some research to the first "Christian Nation" the Roman Empire, it become clear that when Christianity became the "official religion" it was lessened. People lined up to get baptized. Further study of history shows that almost anytime religion and politics meld two things usually happen, one people who don't conform are persecuted, and there is a battle for dominance between the religious powers and government powers, as with the Papal conflicts in European History, or religion takes total power as we see in Iran.

I think religion and government are strengthened when they are separate. We both grew up in a state that is heavily Catholic, I doubt you remember when Kenndey was elected but there was terrible fear that him being Catholic would increase the pope's influence in American politics, that fear was mainly expressed by Protestants.

I think we need to mature as a nation and respect the beliefs and practices of others, as I have read you express on gay issues, and respect that some of us are religious others not so much and others not at all.

I would close by saying that freedom of religion has to mean freedom from religion, or that freedom has no meaning.

Originally Posted by DL-44

You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy but your whole stance seems based on choosing not to believe this stuff exists and I just find that bizarre.

Well, the Founding Fathers sure seemed like intelligent guys. Surely, it they thought that making this a "christian nation" was such a good idea, they'd have taken steps to ensure that it was officially identified as such from Day 1.

But they didn't.

Just because someone is a "christian" doesn't make everything they do "christian". That very idea is more fucking retarded than I care to consider. That's like saying that, since Darius Rucker now sings country instead of his Hootie & The Blowfish stuff, that country music is "black" music.

If the Founding Fathers wanted this to be a "christian nation", it would've been officially identified as such. It wasn't. Why not? Because despite the fact that many were christians, they were also smart enough to know that making this a "christian nation" would be a really bad idea...

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

How often do you say the Pledge of Allegiance? I may say it once a year at my granddaughter's school and in the past 25 years, I've probably said it a total of 10 times. In other words, those who wish to change tradition are mostly just being vindictive.

Glad to see you agreeing that those who wished to change the Pledge of Allegiance to include "under God" were just being vindictive...

Originally Posted by sailorman126

freedom from religion means that religion will be outlawed.

No it doesn't.

How fucking stupid.

"Freedom from religion" means just that; freedom from religion. One cannot be compelled to follow any religion if he chooses not to...

if you are offended by someone praying you shold look at yourself and ask why are you so intolerant that you cant allow someone to pray

If one's faith in God is so strong, perhaps that person should look at himself and ask why he's so intolerant that he wets himself when someone says "God" should be endorsed by government...

Originally Posted by thanatos144

So if you do good it was you and if you sucked it was God?

No, but if God gets the credit when someone smacks a grand slam over the left field wall, he should take the heat if the same guy strikes out...

Originally Posted by jpn

I am free from having someone else's religion shoved down my throat everywhere I look.

Everywhere you look? I have to wonder, do you take offense when you walk or drive by a church, with it's steeple and cross and words from Jesus displayed on a sign out front? I mean, how insulated from religion do you think you deserve to be? Where does that line of thought end?

Originally Posted by Steve

If one's faith in God is so strong, perhaps that person should look at himself and ask why he's so intolerant that he wets himself when someone says "God" should be endorsed by government...

It was late.

That should've said "shouldn't".

Carry on...

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

I honestly don't think that "under God" or "in God we trust" means that the government is involved in religion. In reality, they are only words that really mean nothing to a non-believer while to a believer, they can mean a lot. And if we're all completely honest about it, we don't look that closely at the bills beyond the denomination as we pull it from our wallets.
How often do you say the Pledge of Allegiance? I may say it once a year at my granddaughter's school and in the past 25 years, I've probably said it a total of 10 times. In other words, those who wish to change tradition are mostly just being vindictive.

It's not that abut the god reference on our currency as much as that many feel, as I do, that religion, namely Christianity has been slowly creeping into our legislature under the guise of things like Intelligent design and DOMA. This is why I am sensitive to it. I cannot walk twenty feet without having some kid of religious nonsense being throw at me. Whether it is a hate-ridden billboard message or some idiot telling me I need to find Jesus, or idiots like Beck on TV spouting pure lies and propaganda to incite people using their faith as a tool---a weapon to forward a more self-serving agenda.

As far as the Pledge. It is spoken in unison daily by entire schools full of young children. It is fact that repetition is akin to a form of mind control. If you make somebody repeat something enough they will believe it. Adding under god to the pledge is telling kids that there is a god when the government has no right to tell its people whether or not there is a god. It is up to the individual to make that choice and If one wants their kids to have a faith-cased education, one can send one's kids to a private school where things like prayer and god are mandatory. Our public schools should not be telling kids anything about god other then historical references to various religions in history class.