Thread: NBC and the "Pledge of Allegiance"

Originally Posted by Golden Cabal

Simple answer:

It's not the belief in a higher authority that bothers us, it's how people behave in relationship to it.


Because you see, far too many theists believe that we must all be the same and must be made to believe in their deity, by any means possible.

It wouldn't be so bad if people kept it to themselves and in the Churches.

But for the most part, you get on the extreme side people like Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church (The God hates fags guy), violent pro-lifers who bomb clinics and others put prices on the head of any doctor who performs an abortion for any reason what so ever, and other extremists, and people who go violently nuts whenever their prophet is illustrated.

On the not so extremist sides, you've got people who believe that their, and only their religion, should be taught in public schools as a fact. Such as the fight to institutionalize Intelligent Design in lieu of Evolution, and people won't be voted for in an office if they aren't religious in some way, and not allowing Homosexuals to be married ebcause the Bible says so and that's good enough for them.

And in short, theists can't understand that there are people who just don't want to be theists themselves, and want to live their own lives.

But theists can't understand that. The vast majority of them are bullies and control freaks who think they are better than everybody else because they follow a higher power, and that they must make everybody the same as them. What must be true for them must be true for everybody else and if not must be made to be true.

Hence, forcing an entire country of hundreds of millions of people to take a pledge that says things like "Under God" and "In God We Trust".

But of course, they can never see that. People have a bad habit of never seeing what they do to other people, even if it's pointed out to them. People only see what other people do. And they will never see the harm in what they're doing and will always believe that they are right and only they are justified in forcing people to conform to their beliefs.

I don't like to get caught up in partisan politics but you do have to admire the time tested liberal double standard. You're the type of person who supports putting up a billboard outside New York City during the holidays stating "You KNOW it's a Myth. This Season, Celebrate REASON!" then become offended when a store clerk wishes you a "Merry Christmas".

I'm not really sure where this idea of "forcing" is even coming from. I don't know anyone in this country who is actually forced to support a faith they choose not to nor do I really care what you believe in. What I object to is people like you going to court and activists judges like Fred Biery legislating from the bench to restrict my speech, especially when you feel no compunctions about insulting me and others. Then again, there's that famous liberal double standard.

This really isn't about God you know. Atheists know there has to be no God cause when they find out there is they know they will be judged for the things they selfishly did in their life. No what this is really about is phasing out the idea that we are sovereign country. It is about a global government. Makes me wonder why these global progressives think it is better across the pound. Lets all look at Greece and that shows us where the progressive ideology leads. So I say pledge to allegiance the country that because of God gave you the freedom to be a selfish tool.

God Bless The USA

Originally Posted by lutherf

I'm well aware of the original version of the pledge but that doesn't have anything to do with the issue today.

More and more I'm hearing folks crying about being "subjected to" religious speech and I'm seeing more and more institutions caving in to that blathering. As far as it being an atheist issue.....well, it isn't the Muslims or the Buddhists or the Zoroastrians that are complaining about the use of the word "God". It's the atheists who are doing the bitching and it's absolutely hilarious to see folks wanting to be protected from the pretty much universally accepted notion of the inherent right to free speech in the public domain.

In the history of the Pledge of Allegiance, the main group of people to raise a shit storm about it have been Jehovah's Witnesses, atheist challenges have been small fry in comparison (and unlike the Jehovah's Witnesses, the atheists aren't saying the whole thing is unconstitutional). One of the most recent challenges to the pledge here in Virginia was brought up by Christian plaintiffs, too.

People are free to say the pledge, not say the pledge, omit parts of the pledge, add parts of the pledge, etc. You can't be scolded whatsoever for doing so (at least not in a public school, where it is most often recited). As I mentioned earlier, my school system took the "under God" out of the pledge nearly two decades ago, but there were still students who would say it (which would utterly destroy the unison of "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" ).

For me it isn't an atheist vs. theist issue. The inclusion of "under God" always struck me as a bit odd even going back to the 5th grade when I was still very much a weekly churchgoer. I guess it mostly stems from the fact that it was something we were required to recite, my school was requiring that I recognize a God every morning and from what I understood, that seemed to fly in the face of a secular government.

This is a reason why I don't really give a crap about "In God We Trust" being on our money, because I'm not required to recite it or make any sort of pledge when using the money.

Besides, it's not like anyone is suggesting the pledge be changed to "...One nation under no God because he doesn't exist..."

Originally Posted by lutherf

First of all, nobody is "forced" to say anything or pledge anything. There isn't some "political officer" in the back of a classroom taking names of people who don't recite the pledge and no names are being collected to turn over to the "reeducation corps".

Second, you're concerned that people want their point of view to be expressed? Tough shit. Everyone wants their point of view expressed and if you line up 100 people you'll get 100 different points of view even from a relatively homogeneous group. Why should the POV of an atheist get any kind of preemption over that of a theist?

Third, I can list screwballs all day long too. Fred Phelps doesn't represent anyone other than Fred Phelps and a few others who choose to let him represent them. Osama bin Laden is the same in that respect and so was Stalin who was willing to put a bullet in your head for believing in an organized religion. Crazy is crazy and doesn't have a whole lot to do with any expressed ideology. In those cases the ideology is merely a conveyance for the crazy and if it wasn't "god" as the vehicle then it might well be cold tuna salad in wheat bread.

Actually, yes there is, except the teacher is the "political officer" in a way.

And that is children are actually sent to detention if they don't say the Pledge properly or if they refuse to.

Secondly, why should a theist have any kind of preemption over that of a theist?

And you're missing the point entirely.

But it's like I said, people never see what they do, they only see what others do, and always believe that they are totally right and justified in doing so, regardless of anything else.

Originally Posted by lutherf

First of all, nobody is "forced" to say anything or pledge anything. There isn't some "political officer" in the back of a classroom taking names of people who don't recite the pledge and no names are being collected to turn over to the "reeducation corps".

Not entirely. Here in Virginia, students are required to learn the pledge and demonstrate their ability to recite it. They are, however, free to refrain from the daily recitation.

Originally Posted by Golden Cabal

Actually, yes there is, except the teacher is the "political officer" in a way.

And that is children are actually sent to detention if they don't say the Pledge properly or if they refuse to.

Secondly, why should a theist have any kind of preemption over that of a theist?

And you're missing the point entirely.

But it's like I said, people never see what they do, they only see what others do, and always believe that they are totally right and justified in doing so, regardless of anything else.

Teachers are political officers in no way at all nor are they allowed to force someone to say the Pledge of Allegiance. The Supreme Court ruled on that decades ago. Sensational stories hit our newspapers every now and then about parents angry over their children being suspended, etc. for refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance but it inevitably ends up the children being suspended because of their protests over saying it.

Just because Junior isn't required to say it doesn't mean he can yell like a maniac or throw books when everyone else is voluntarily saying it.

I'm genuinely unaware of a single incident where a child was suspended for quietly standing at attention during the recitation and that suspension upheld.

Originally Posted by Golden Cabal

But it's like I said, people never see what they do, they only see what others do, and always believe that they are totally right and justified in doing so, regardless of anything else.

You haven't told us what we are doing to you yet.

I'm genuinely unaware of a single incident where a child was suspended

Here's two for you to consider:

WFAA, Dallas/April 6, 2007
By David Schechter

A student who refuses to recite the Pledge of Allegiance has been given a two-day suspension from Lewisville High.

He says, saying the pledge violates his religious beliefs.

The school district says his behavior is a distraction to the rest of the classroom.

For most Texans, the American flag is the fabric that binds us together.

Even more so, in this time of war.

In fact, it is state law that all children honor it daily by saying the pledge of allegiance.

That is, unless a child objects, like Adrian Boykin does.

"The only thing I pledge allegiance to is God, not a flag. It's cloth to me."

Boykin's family follows the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

They believe the pledge equates to worshiping an image or object above God.

"You're not supposed to put any idol before God," said Boykin's mother, Kolette.

Adrian Boykin says after several months in class, his teacher at Lewisville High finally noticed him not reciting the pledge.

The senior was sent to detention but refused to go, leading to a two-day suspension.

The district says a student has the right not to recite the pledge, but cannot cause distractions with their actions.

Hiram Sasser is an attorney with the conservative Liberty Legal Institute.

Source:

Student suspended for refusing pledge

And:

Within a span of four years, the U.S. Supreme Court took two different stands on whether disciplining students who refused to salute the American flag violated their FIRST AMENDMENT rights of FREEDOM OF SPEECH and religion. In Minersville School District v. Gobitis, 310 U.S. 586, 60 S. Ct. 1010, 84 L. Ed. 1375 (1940), the Court upheld the constitutionality of a Pennsylvania regulation that permitted the expulsion of children for not saluting the flag or reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to it. However, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319U.S. 624, 63 S. Ct. 1178, 87 L. Ed. 1628 (1943), the Court reversed itself and overturned a West Virginia law that compelled public school children to salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. The two decisions have come to be known as the Flag Salute cases and are important for the First Amendment issues that were raised and decided.

Flag Salute Cases - Court, School, Children, Pledge, Religious, and Allegiance

You haven't told us what we are doing to you yet.

I have no interest in answering your retarded question. You'll just dismiss anything I have to say on the subject.

Originally Posted by Golden Cabal

I have no interest in answering your retarded question. You'll just dismiss anything I have to say on the subject.

Maybe, but you won't know until you try. In the mean time, we'll just assume you don't have an answer.

That's a perfect example, Golden Cabal.

It took me all of a minute's worth of Google'ing to learn Adrian Boykin was not suspended for failing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance but rather because he disrupted the class when he refused to leave the room as part of an arrangement his parents made with the school district because his protests became too disruptive. That Boykin was not only allowed to stand quietly without protest during the Pledge of Allegiance but special arrangements were made when he proved unwilling is pretty accommodating in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Golden Cabal

Here's two for you to consider:


Source:

Student suspended for refusing pledge

And:



Flag Salute Cases - Court, School, Children, Pledge, Religious, and Allegiance



I have no interest in answering your retarded question. You'll just dismiss anything I have to say on the subject.

No child should ever be disciplined for not saying the Pledge whether for political or religious reasons. Even in the 60's in the Deep South, we respected a Jehovah's Witness' right to sit down during the morning pledge and no one thought ill of him for doing it. I have no problem, either, with a kid who skips over "under God" as long as he's respectful about it. I would, however, wonder about the parents of kids who teach them to not say the pledge for political reasons....I see a cabin in the mountain, loaded down like an armory and rampant paranoia in the kid's future.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

This really isn't about God you know. Atheists know there has to be no God cause when they find out there is they know they will be judged for the things they selfishly did in their life. No what this is really about is phasing out the idea that we are sovereign country. It is about a global government. Makes me wonder why these global progressives think it is better across the pound. Lets all look at Greece and that shows us where the progressive ideology leads. So I say pledge to allegiance the country that because of God gave you the freedom to be a selfish tool.

God Bless The USA

What a completely ridiculous post. Because of God, I have freedom? Really? Oh, and Greece? Have you looked at the Scandinavian model at all?

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

I see a cabin in the mountain, loaded down like an armory and rampant paranoia in the kid's future.

Now, Mrs. M, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a well protected mountain retreat.