Thread: German companies complicit in the torture of Bahraini nationals

You mean a European country isnt perfect? Does Obama Know? Hypocrites all of them.

You know what's funny?

If this thread were about GE providing electronics that some South American military used during enhanced interrogation, or if Pfizer was providing some African nation's intelligence service with a truth serum, the Europeans on this forum would be all over it SCREAMING about how the U.S. exports repression.

Next time one of them pipes up about how evil the U.S. is I'll have to remind him to go fuck himself.

To be fair soot, Americans kind of bitch about GE a lot as well you know...

This seems like good business sense from Nokia and Siemens to co-operate with regulators in what were lawful searches and seizures made. I don't understand what the problem is, this is a good thing.

Wow. Siemens and dirty buisness? Who could have known.
That company ones pribed the entire japanese navy high command for a battleship contract about 135 years ago...

The sale of dual use materials was a uproar in our media and politics.. it got soon overshadowed by the sale of Leopard 2 MBTs to Saudi Arabia though... heated debates followed...
The defence of the government was silence, a ok from Israel and the implication that the Saudis would just buy their tanks somewhere else otherwise... that would be the US I suppose.

Yep you cought German corperations... just as badass profit orientated and corrupting as yours. Shocker.. we are not so different you and we.

All this made massiv headwaves in the public, parliament and media though. It will be one more nail in the cofine of the current government coalition when the next elections come.

When did your congress had a serious discussion about weapon exports to unstable regions & dictatorships that involved draging high government officials in front of hearings for the last time? Iran Contra?

Germans have rather little opinions of corperate ethics, politicians morals and sainthood of institutions. We are not shocked when people are cought lying or cheating... that's called reality.
We get angry and wonder HOW it's possible... demand thougher laws and transparency.

What?

Unless i am missing something here, what they did was to actually follow the law and when a request for a transcript or conversation log is made, the company provides the information to the government - seems pretty self explanatory. Siemens (by the looks of it) decided to comply with the law.

Originally Posted by Traveler

What?

Unless i am missing something here, what they did was to actually follow the law and when a request for a transcript or conversation log is made, the company provides the information to the government - seems pretty self explanatory. Siemens (by the looks of it) decided to comply with the law.

You are right nobody broke the law. That's why the discussion isn't focused at punishing Siemens&Co.

The scandal & discussion is about ethics & morals in international trade relations... triggered by politics and the fact that there is currently a wonderful positive developement in the middle-east which we should aid nor help to surpress.

The conflict is about optimizing the government regulations & the laws to make German corperations conform with the values of the public in order to be well represented abroad by our actions.

For many Germans it's a disgrace to see "Made in Germany" on weapons used to surpress human rights... unfortunatly even more Germans don't care too much out of ignorance ;-) (not so different )
Our law sees weapon sales as aids to conflict... as such they can come back to hunt us... (blow back)
I don't want to know what Saudis think about Germany if they want to claim their right for freedom and get killed by tanks made in Germany.. paid for by money stolen from their future.

That's a common event in politics isn't it? Aligning government & laws with the will of the people... through preassure or elections.

Or as we call it, Democracy? I dunno...maybe but i guess if the angst you have with the law itself is great enough then why not call for it to be changed/ammended? Something more ethical to suit your sensibilities better as a nation? Of course you could become a nation that is not based on goods or services and doesn't manufacture anything but then again, whilst you do, you'll have to market and sell those "weapons" (i assume you meant that figuratively and not literally) and at least for now, you have a buyer or 10 in the Middle East which is something to be grateful for. You have some say in the whole thing ; you won't have any say at all if they buy it from elsewhere but at least you'll have your own sense of moral highground that it didn't have "made in Germany" written on it.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Or as well it, Democracy? I dunno...maybe but i guess if the angst you have with the law itself is great enough then why not call for it to be changed/ammended? Something more ethical to suit your sensibilities better as a nation? Of course you could become a nation that is not based on goods or services and doesn't manufacture anything but then again, whilst you do, you'll have to market and sell those "weapons" (i assume you meant that figuratively and not literally) and at least for now, you have a buyer or 10 in the Middle East which is something to be grateful for. You have some say in the whole thing ; you won't have any say at all if they buy it from elsewhere but at least you'll have your own sense of moral highground that it didn't have "made in Germany" written on it.

I got no beef with weapon sales to close allies and deomcracies under threat.
That's the biggest market for the German military industrial complex at large.

Our laws are already rather strict. But laws and application of law are two different things.

I think there is absolutly nothing wrong at trying to eliminate the weapon sales that are aimed to contradict our values. Those are but a tiny fraction of our industry & exports... selling rifles and tanks to dictatorships -interventions of oppression- might cost us valueable trade for the benefit of both people in the future.

The Bahrain thing is not as big a deal as the tanks for Saudi Arabia though... selling survailance electronics is indeed kind of far fetched.
But selling the best tanks of the world in a version optimized for urban warfare to the absolute monarchy of Saudi Arabia at the time of democratic revolutions & reforms in their neighbourhood... that's freaky.
Especially since such a deal requires the Ok of the chancelor.. which it obviously got. A women who talks about living under dictatorship herself...
A dictatorship that used tanks to break down a pro-democracy uprising in the 50s... The aniversary of that brutally crushed uprising was our national holiday till reunification btw.

Moral highground my ass... I don't want egyptians to remember how german tanks crushed the uprising of their brothers in Saudi Arabia.... nothing good comes from deals like that...