Thread: Lowering the bar for Florida students.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

Education is a state issue....Or was. I see no problem about having schools I just have a problem with a government monopoly with no true standards.....Nothing wrong with competition in education from both private and public.

Yeah I realize that...where do you think all the push for mandatory testing comes from? Where does the monopoly in education come from? Where does the mandate that everyone must go to school come from. The Federal Government...

Originally Posted by ericams2786

Yeah I realize that...where do you think all the push for mandatory testing comes from? Where does the monopoly in education come from? Where does the mandate that everyone must go to school come from. The Federal Government...

Thats not what you asked....You said government.....That includes state. I am not for that. I agree the fed made things worse and need to go.

Originally Posted by ericams2786

Yeah I realize that...where do you think all the push for mandatory testing comes from? Where does the monopoly in education come from? Where does the mandate that everyone must go to school come from. The Federal Government...

That's not quite right. The demand comes from business. Business needs workers who have been taught skills like how to sit or stand still for long periods of time. How to do tedious repetitive tasks fairly accurately. How to follow instructions. How to respect authority. How to be quiet and pay attention. A worker who can get through school to earn an associates or bachelors degree has shown they are capable of following instructions and completing a meaningless 4 - 6 week project with minimal supervision. Our education system is responsible for the fact that American workers are among the worlds most productive.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

Thats not what you asked....You said government.....That includes state. I am not for that. I agree the fed made things worse and need to go.

Yes, I said government...but once again where did mandatory testing come from. The states HAVE to test students. Why would that be?

Originally Posted by timj219

That's not quite right. The demand comes from business. Business needs workers who have been taught skills like how to sit or stand still for long periods of time. How to do tedious repetitive tasks fairly accurately. How to follow instructions. How to respect authority. How to be quiet and pay attention. A worker who can get through school to earn an associates or bachelors degree has shown they are capable of following instructions and completing a meaningless 4 - 6 week project with minimal supervision. Our education system is responsible for the fact that American workers are among the worlds most productive.

It is quite right...business didn't mandate education or testing, the Federal Government did through the creation of the Dept of Education and later, No Child Left Behind.

Originally Posted by ericams2786

Yes, I said government...but once again where did mandatory testing come from. The states HAVE to test students. Why would that be?

To gauge if teachers are reaching a standard....I think maybe you don't understand how this works....

Originally Posted by ericams2786

It is quite right...business didn't mandate education or testing, the Federal Government did through the creation of the Dept of Education and later, No Child Left Behind.

The focus of public schools has been the same since before I was born. That focus is preparing workers for the workplace. The testing (if you believe it was implemented in good faith) is just an attempt to make sure our education dollars are being effectively spent.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

Maybe OR maybe we can hold responsible the people we are PAYING to TEACH them writing....My Daughter failed the reading portion last year and took summer school But I made her read everyday and still do....20 Minuets a day and she has to explain to me what she read.....She hates it but she aced the reading portion this time and it was made more difficult.....Now that was good right???????

Fuck yes that was good.

First, I hope I didn't give you the impression that I think your typo is in any way indicative of an inability to raise/educate your kids in the home.

In the immortal words of Eddie Haskell, "It's not every day you get to kick a man when he's down."

I saw the chance to take a cheap shot and I'm just not the sort to pass that up.

Anyhow...

I think it's great that you make your kid read.

I think that every parent should.

I'm honestly a little surprised that you weren't making your kid spend time each day reading before it became an issue.

I'd expect you to know exactly where your kid stands on each and every class/subject she's studying and kind of nip things in the bud if there was even a hint that she wasn't excelling.

And don't take that as a dig on you. It isn't. And I'm not being pretentious either. Based on what little I know of you I'm actually surprised that you allowed this to sneak up on you.

I had to TEACH her myself so why the fuck am I sending her to school if they cant even teach basics?

Honestly now, did you have to teach her the basics?

Or did she just need a little extra work putting the basics together, practicing by doing, and becoming really proficient?

I ask because I'm actually teaching my kid the basics and it takes a lot more effort than 20 minutes a day for a couple months. My boy and I spend about 30 to 45 minutes a day on his reading and have been at it for about a year now and he's still not even close to reading on his own. He actually memorizes the books I buy him, literally word for word, before he gets close to being able to read them. By way of full disclosure my boy is four years old so he isn't being tought reading in school yet but based on what I've seen/learned so far during the process of teaching him I couldn't possibly see how this is something he'd get good at without constant reinforcement at home.

(which I still was pissed about cause standardized tests are to gauge the teacher not punish the students)

My understanding of standardized tests is that they exist to gauge student achievment.

The quality of the school and/or of the teacher(s) are only facets of a child's education.

You can't seriously believe that a child is going to learn to read based on an hour-long reading class given in school, only five days a week, during the nine months (or so) that school is in session.

You can have the best teacher in the world and the work that a child does in school, learning to read, wouldn't be nearly enough, as I alluded to above.

At a certain point we have to stop drooling over how nob,le teachers are and actually look to see if they are doing the job we pay them for with our Tax dollars.....If you ran a business and a employee was fucking off all day and not doing their job to a standard made known you would fire them not praise them for taking time out of their day to work.

I don't disagree with that at all, in principal.

If a teacher just straight sucks at his/her job then I think they should be shitcanned.

Wanting to be a teacher, or liking your job as a teacher, even being dedicated to teaching, aren't enough.

If a teacher just can't teach then (s)he needs to be replaced with someone who can.

I have to ask - did all of the children your daughter's teacher was teaching fail their reading portion of their test? Did most of them? How many kids from that class were in summer school with your daughter?

Is reading the only subject that teacher teaches? If not, what were her students' test scores like in the other subjects she teaches?

What else is going on in the classroom? Are there students there, who the teacher is mandated to teach, who are disciplinary/behavioral problems? Are there kids who aren't eating/sleeping/exercizing properly and who, as a result, require extra effort on the part of the teacher?

A teacher can only do so much. The quality of the students and the quality of the school and school community also play a pretty big role in a teacher's ability to help kids learn.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

To gauge if teachers are reaching a standard....I think maybe you don't understand how this works....

Hence the problem with how this is working out, welcome to federal government solutions at work. Education shifts to just teaching the test, the actual teaching of knowledge on the subject matter is discarded for hopeful testing results, at the point of failure the student is punished, and the teachers in the end come up with a work around. Does not matter if it is testing scores, editing the curriculum to just more test teaching, changing the answers or just lowering the bar the effect is all the same... the effort of teaching the student is lost.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

To gauge if teachers are reaching a standard....I think maybe you don't understand how this works....

Yes I do. Why do we have mandatory testing, the same mandatory testing you are complaining about?

Also think about the unintended consequences of the Feds intervention in the educational sector through NCLB: schools are desperate to make their children pass at all costs in order to not lose Federal funds and not have to be restructured...hence the reason they are "dumbing down" the tests so that the children pass.

Originally Posted by timj219

The focus of public schools has been the same since before I was born. That focus is preparing workers for the workplace. The testing (if you believe it was implemented in good faith) is just an attempt to make sure our education dollars are being effectively spent.

I would presume the focus of any school is to teach, not necessarily aim at job placement. Sure, that focus is more now, but that isn't the point I was even trying to make. I'm making the point that it's the Federal government medling in education that is the problem and they are the one's who implemented the mandatory testing the OP is complaining about. Business didn't mandate testing and definitely didn't mandate school for everyone.

Originally Posted by ericams2786

I would presume the focus of any school is to teach, not necessarily aim at job placement. Sure, that focus is more now, but that isn't the point I was even trying to make. I'm making the point that it's the Federal government medling in education that is the problem and they are the one's who implemented the mandatory testing the OP is complaining about. Business didn't mandate testing and definitely didn't mandate school for everyone.

Of course business mandates school for everyone. Business needs conditioned workers to make a profit. Business owns the politicians. Business dictates the mandatory nature and the content of schooling. That's obvious because the schools focus on exactly the compliance, cooperation, and ability to complete meaningless and unrewarding tasks that business finds most valuable in a worker. If someone else was dictating the nature of schooling the focus would be on different skills. Like thinking. Or independence. Or civic responsibility. etc etc

Originally Posted by ericams2786

Yes I do. Why do we have mandatory testing, the same mandatory testing you are complaining about?

Also think about the unintended consequences of the Feds intervention in the educational sector through NCLB: schools are desperate to make their children pass at all costs in order to not lose Federal funds and not have to be restructured...hence the reason they are "dumbing down" the tests so that the children pass.

:rolleyes: Why is you always make everything into a grand conspiracy????? The feds tried to control education and we all found out they are not good at it....Hell state governments are not good at it. Education should be a local thing....There is no conspiracy here just powerful people not want to admit they were wrong and pandering to unions. It is simple........The state I reside in now has a fucked up way of using standardized tests. Which by the way have been around for decades......over 50 years even. Our education is going to shit cause they dumb down education to get funds....Now we can easly fix this by not giving them any federal funds but teachers should still be held to a certain standard and dammit right now they are not.