Thread: Lowering the bar for Florida students.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Well, I went to school, public school in the 50's and 60's and in the 60's we had to pass that JFK physical fitness test, and I think it was great. But much has changed in public schools since those days. I think more parents were involved in the education process in earlier times. Although my own parents were not, and it made no difference in my education. I think the main difference is that back in those day kids were taught deference and respect to their teachers, to authority. You went to school being conditioned to be that way, by your parents and by your local society. The teachers back then were mostly women, and since there wasn't many women in business, in corporations, as lawyers, etc, the quality of teachers we had were perhaps better than today. We had women who would be in high positions today in other fields, making more than a teachers pay.

I think the problem with education has many factors not just one or two. And the problems in education are a reflection of a changed society.I am talking public education here. Todays kids are hyper distracted with parents that allow the distractions. Much of our education is done after one leaves school and goes home. I think this has become a weak link in many homes in america. Today, I do not know of any middle, middle class families or upper middle class families that have problems with their children learning, even in public schools in my area. I think there a socio economic factor involved, but it's different than my school days. Different because almost everyone I knew in my country school were what would be considered poor by todays standards. Yet the education was better, people actually could read when they graduated. Our drop out rate wasn't large. I think we lost 5 or 6 people out of 50 something from grade school to high school. Most of those just joined their dad's on the family farm, and many ended up better off than some of the folks that graduated. Ah, those were good days for average people. We had hope, and looked towards a bright future, which most of us achieved.

So, there isn't just one problem, like bad teachers, although we have way too many in my local schools that should be working in a wal mart instead of teaching. It goes much deeper than that, because some kids in their classes have no problem learning. I guess these teachers just cannot reach the kids that are not self motivated, or motivated by parents. Perhaps a better teacher could. I sure do not know the complete answer. Or perhaps these kids would never improve, regardless of the teachers.

From my own experience, with my wife having retired from teaching, as well as her father, she says the parents changed over the years, and she got too many that had no interest in their children's education. When the child was doing bad, not studying, she would conference with them, and many times the parent just didn't care. Most were single moms who were too busy pursuing their own pleasure. This is a societal problem.

I also think the malaise of many of today's parents, created by their loss of opportunity plays a role. It is communicated to their kids, a hopelessness, that they take with them to school. Why study hard they think? I can make a better living selling drugs. At least then I can have great clothes, a real nice car, the latest gadget, etc. Look at my mom, she went to college and we are on food stamps! To dismiss this would be foolish, I believe.

You hit the nail on the head here. Public schools are handicapped by having to take students whose parents don't really care whether the kids get an education or not.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Well, I went to school, public school in the 50's and 60's and in the 60's we had to pass that JFK physical fitness test, and I think it was great. But much has changed in public schools since those days. I think more parents were involved in the education process in earlier times. Although my own parents were not, and it made no difference in my education. I think the main difference is that back in those day kids were taught deference and respect to their teachers, to authority. You went to school being conditioned to be that way, by your parents and by your local society. The teachers back then were mostly women, and since there wasn't many women in business, in corporations, as lawyers, etc, the quality of teachers we had were perhaps better than today. We had women who would be in high positions today in other fields, making more than a teachers pay.

I think the problem with education has many factors not just one or two. And the problems in education are a reflection of a changed society.I am talking public education here. Todays kids are hyper distracted with parents that allow the distractions. Much of our education is done after one leaves school and goes home. I think this has become a weak link in many homes in america. Today, I do not know of any middle, middle class families or upper middle class families that have problems with their children learning, even in public schools in my area. I think there a socio economic factor involved, but it's different than my school days. Different because almost everyone I knew in my country school were what would be considered poor by todays standards. Yet the education was better, people actually could read when they graduated. Our drop out rate wasn't large. I think we lost 5 or 6 people out of 50 something from grade school to high school. Most of those just joined their dad's on the family farm, and many ended up better off than some of the folks that graduated. Ah, those were good days for average people. We had hope, and looked towards a bright future, which most of us achieved.

So, there isn't just one problem, like bad teachers, although we have way too many in my local schools that should be working in a wal mart instead of teaching. It goes much deeper than that, because some kids in their classes have no problem learning. I guess these teachers just cannot reach the kids that are not self motivated, or motivated by parents. Perhaps a better teacher could. I sure do not know the complete answer. Or perhaps these kids would never improve, regardless of the teachers.

From my own experience, with my wife having retired from teaching, as well as her father, she says the parents changed over the years, and she got too many that had no interest in their children's education. When the child was doing bad, not studying, she would conference with them, and many times the parent just didn't care. Most were single moms who were too busy pursuing their own pleasure. This is a societal problem.

I also think the malaise of many of today's parents, created by their loss of opportunity plays a role. It is communicated to their kids, a hopelessness, that they take with them to school. Why study hard they think? I can make a better living selling drugs. At least then I can have great clothes, a real nice car, the latest gadget, etc. Look at my mom, she went to college and we are on food stamps! To dismiss this would be foolish, I believe.

You outdid yourself doggie. That was a great post with a lot of insight into the problem of education. In our small town we are solving part of those problems with alternative school. Disruptive students are removed from the main line and put into an environment which can better control them. Our teachers found they could quickly determine which children were not getting help with homework at home so they have taken a different approach by setting aside a period with assistance to do the homework. Those that can't do it are tutored, and those who won't do it are disciplined, if nothing else alternative school. Alternative school very quickly became something no one want to go to because the kids were put in a class room with their chairs facing one of the 4 walls too far apart to whisper to his neighbor. They were given individual attention to help them catch up which proved that their problem of disruption was not understanding to begin with.

Good thinking doggie. Keep it up.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

Which is why most people I know send their kids to private schools.
Public schools are a joke when half the 5 hour day is gym and music appreciation.
The Dems have destroyed our school system with their "feel good about yourself" horse dung.

The feel good stuff comes from both conservatives and liberals. It is called bad parenting and it has no political bias but that isn't the problem. Mostly, the school system has been screwed up by conservative idots who insist that educators teach mythology as facts.

Originally Posted by zip98053

The feel good stuff comes from both conservatives and liberals. It is called bad parenting and it has no political bias but that isn't the problem. Mostly, the school system has been screwed up by conservative idots who insist that educators teach mythology as facts.

God forbid we hold teacher accountable to the job we pay them for huh?

Originally Posted by thanatos144

God forbid we hold teacher accountable to the job we pay them for huh?

Teachers are accountable to an acting script as well as a state mandated curriculum.
And teacher pay, regardless of whether or not we consider it high, is usually one third what a useless administrator gets.

Originally Posted by zip98053

The feel good stuff comes from both conservatives and liberals. It is called bad parenting and it has no political bias but that isn't the problem. Mostly, the school system has been screwed up by conservative idots who insist that educators teach mythology as facts.

Oh give me a break! The school system is screwed up from lack of funding, stupid parents who believe their little terrors can do no wrong and parents who have absolutely no interest in making sure their children learn. I grew up in a time when the Bible wasn't forbidden in the classroom though religion wasn't taught in class and parents cared about what kids did in school...if I got a C meant, it that I was grounded until the next report card. Today's parents don't want the letter grade system because little Johnny's self-esteem will be hurt if he gets an F when little Janie has an A. Little Johnny gets everything he wants today because it's easier to buy the latest and greatest technology for a 10 year old than it is to listen to him whine...sounds more like liberal traits than conservative ones to me.

Originally Posted by Mrs. M

Oh give me a break! The school system is screwed up from lack of funding, stupid parents who believe their little terrors can do no wrong and parents who have absolutely no interest in making sure their children learn. I grew up in a time when the Bible wasn't forbidden in the classroom though religion wasn't taught in class and parents cared about what kids did in school...if I got a C meant, it that I was grounded until the next report card. Today's parents don't want the letter grade system because little Johnny's self-esteem will be hurt if he gets an F when little Janie has an A. Little Johnny gets everything he wants today because it's easier to buy the latest and greatest technology for a 10 year old than it is to listen to him whine...sounds more like liberal traits than conservative ones to me.

Thats right move blame from the person getting paid to do the job they arent to the parents who are paying them....Must at all cost make sure the teachers are NEVER asked to actually be competent.

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

ahoy Wlessard,

i don't really accept the distinction, matey.

government be government. the idear that the federal government runs our local public schools with some kinda iron glove be vastly o'erstated. each municipality hath great latitude o'er how things be done locally. the tests mentioned in the OP be just a national measurin' stick that personally imma fine with.

at any rate, the dismal performance in our schools hath nothin' at all to do with the Federal Government. it has to do with the culture 'o the nation.

i agree with ye that standards ought not to be lowered, not unless our competitors globally also agree to lower thar standards.

- MeadHallPirate

Who sets the bar for those tests? Who determines what level children need to do to pass the tests, as opposed to learning about things and learning critical thinking? Carrot and stick method, if you run your school the way the Federal requires you get more money from the Federal if you do not meet their requirements then you get less or no money. Better analogy is the iron fist in the silk glove. AND YES it is the iron fist of money being withheld.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

Thats right move blame from the person getting paid to do the job they arent to the parents who are paying them....Must at all cost make sure the teachers are NEVER asked to actually be competent.

She didn't say that and you know she didn't.

The point is that education is ultimately the responsibility of the parent. If their kid is falling asleep in school or being disruptive it's probably because of something going on at home. If the kid is straight aces but the teacher sucks then the parent needs to be the one to make that known to the school and/or move the kid. What Mrs. M was saying is that a big part of the problem is parents who just drop the kid off at the doorstep of the school and never take another step in the education of their child. Plunk the kid in front of the TV until they are 5 and then plunk them in front of a teacher until they're 18....parenting done. Pat on the back. Blame the government for a shitty school system when said kid falls flat.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

Thats right move blame from the person getting paid to do the job they arent to the parents who are paying them....Must at all cost make sure the teachers are NEVER asked to actually be competent.

I'd love to see the flowchart connecting Mrs. Ms comment to your response.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

Thats right move blame from the person getting paid to do the job they arent to the parents who are paying them....Must at all cost make sure the teachers are NEVER asked to actually be competent.

What???? I'm all for teachers being required to prove their competency and while I don't know about the rest of the country, I do know that Louisiana teachers are required to prove theirs. You, however, seem to want to take the parents out of the equation...give the teacher a paycheck and the parent's job is done? That's what causes schools to turn out idiots!

Another "blame the teachers" rant. Why does nobody hold parents responsible?

Originally Posted by zip98053

The feel good stuff comes from both conservatives and liberals. It is called bad parenting and it has no political bias but that isn't the problem. Mostly, the school system has been screwed up by conservative idots who insist that educators teach mythology as facts.

Yes, I know, Algebra is kind of mythological for liberals.