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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Sunshine's Avatar
Secretary of State
So many years in one yesterday~

 
Member Since: Aug 2007
Location: Cyberspace
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United_States     Kentucky

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
no i'm pretty sure being a professor in a subject is more qualified to talk about that subject than someone who has had little to no education on that subject.
Are you referring to Forester? If so, please indicate where he has posted his credentials. Thank you.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

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Originally Posted by Lettuce Head View Post
It would save money for sure, but would it save freedom?
It would have no bearing on freedom one way or the other.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
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County Executive

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 392

United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
It would have no bearing on freedom one way or the other.
Would you please explain how abolishing states rights has no bearing on freedom?

Sunshine, THF lists himself as a professor of history in his public profile.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
Would you please explain how abolishing states rights has no bearing on freedom?
Freedom is something that an individual holds, with respect to ANY government at ANY level, or with respect to nongovernmental organizations or powerful individuals. The powers of one level of government with respect to another level of government have nothing to do with this.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
countryboy's Avatar
County Executive

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 392

United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
Freedom is something that an individual holds, with respect to ANY government at ANY level, or with respect to nongovernmental organizations or powerful individuals. The powers of one level of government with respect to another level of government have nothing to do with this.
Ummmmm.......huh? What the heck are you talking about?

When a tyrannical government removes the right of the people to govern, they are by definition depriving the people of their freedom.

By your definition, everybody in the world is "free", including the people of NK, and China.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 5,221

   
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
Ummmmm.......huh? What the heck are you talking about?

When a tyrannical government removes the right of the people to govern, they are by definition depriving the people of their freedom.
That's not what we're talking about. If the U.S. ceases to have a federal system, so that we have a unitary government and the states are subordinate appendages of the federal government, that doesn't mean we have a tyranny. France has a similar system. France is not a tyranny. It's all about the relationship of the individual to government -- NOT about relationships between lower and higher levels of government.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
countryboy's Avatar
County Executive

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 392

United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
That's not what we're talking about. If the U.S. ceases to have a federal system, so that we have a unitary government and the states are subordinate appendages of the federal government, that doesn't mean we have a tyranny. France has a similar system. France is not a tyranny. It's all about the relationship of the individual to government -- NOT about relationships between lower and higher levels of government.
Again gotta disagree with you on this not limiting freedom, you kinda proved my point with what you said about "subordinate appendages". That's actually an excellent way to describe it. If the term "subordinate appendage" doesn't smack of limited freedom, nothing does.

Are you saying France has more freedom than the USA?

Are you in favor of the above mentioned form of government?
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
Again gotta disagree with you on this not limiting freedom, you kinda proved my point with what you said about "subordinate appendages". That's actually an excellent way to describe it. If the term "subordinate appendage" doesn't smack of limited freedom, nothing does.
I am not the state of California. If the state of California becomes a subordinate appendage, that does not affect MY freedom in any way, shape or form, as long as I continue to have a voice/vote at both the local and national level.

Quote:
Are you saying France has more freedom than the USA?
I said only that France is not a tyranny. The USA is not a tyranny, either.

Quote:
Are you in favor of the above mentioned form of government?
I'm neither in favor of it nor against it. It's just a different way of organizing things than federalism.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Lettuce Head's Avatar
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Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: These United States
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United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

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Originally Posted by fishjoel View Post
Rome went in this direction as well. The power of the Senate slowly decressed until all power was place on one person, the Emperor. The line of reasoning you are suggesting would eliminate 1/3 of our checks and balances. There would be no purpose for Congress at that time. The problem with putting all the power in a central location is every glove does not fit every hand. That's why federal programs tend to be horrible. They just don't work in all situations. The local governments know much more of what they need then the federal government.
Quote:
“The several states composing the US. of America are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government…”
–Thomas Jefferson in the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions of 1798 Jefferson and Madison penned resolutions that gave these States the right to declare that if a federal law was deemed unconstitutional by the State, the law was nullified and would not be enforced within that state. This was an attempt to keep a balance of power because if the Federal Supreme Court, who was part of the Federal Government, had the final word on law, what prevented them from always ruling on the side of the Federal Government? What recourse did the States have to defend themselves from unjust Federal Law?

Our country's history has proven what our founders feared, the Federal Government will seek to extract power wherever and whenever possible. If the States don't draw a line in the sand we might one day have no State to call home.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: Aug 2008
Location: Hohenwald
Posts: 2,187

United_States     Tennessee

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
As usual you are full of theories. (Bettcha thought I was going to say something else.)

Representatives are DEFACTO representatives, not only of their STATE, but their particular REGION of their state.

One tactic I use in choosing a representative with all other things being equal is to see if he is from my region of the state. Because they do things for their own regions. How many ways can you spell p-o-r-k? I choose the one from my state and region.



Forester, save your elephant shit. The more you smear the worse you smell.
Members of the House of Representatives do not represent any geographical region or area. They are elected by and represent the PEOPLE.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
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County Executive

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Ohio
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United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

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Originally Posted by TheHighForester View Post
Members of the House of Representatives do not represent any geographical region or area. They are elected by and represent the PEOPLE.
You just don't give up, do you?

More bs.

They absolutely represent the people..........of a specific geographical area, that's how it works. Look it up.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: Aug 2008
Location: Hohenwald
Posts: 2,187

United_States     Tennessee

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lettuce Head View Post
The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions of 1798 Jefferson and Madison penned resolutions that gave these States the right to declare that if a federal law was deemed unconstitutional by the State, the law was nullified and would not be enforced within that state. This was an attempt to keep a balance of power because if the Federal Supreme Court, who was part of the Federal Government, had the final word on law, what prevented them from always ruling on the side of the Federal Government? What recourse did the States have to defend themselves from unjust Federal Law?

Our country's history has proven what our founders feared, the Federal Government will seek to extract power wherever and whenever possible. If the States don't draw a line in the sand we might one day have no State to call home.
Your first sentence is absolutely accurate, but then you strayed.

The Constitution itself does not tell us WHO or WHAT ENTITY should be the final arbiter of whether a law was or was not allowable under the Constitution. Many people thought that determining Constitutionality was the President's responsibility, and that was why he had been given the authority to veto such laws. Others argued that the states should be able to determine Constitutionality. In secretly writing the resolutions passed by Kentucky and Virginia, Jefferson and Madison endorsed this view, and Jefferson went farther by saying that the state, if not satisfied, had a right to secede. The two resolutions were prompted by the passage, under President Adams, of the infamous Alien and Sedition Acts, which were rightly regarded as an attempt to suppress and silence supporters of Thomas Jefferson and to assure the re-election of President Adams. But Jefferson's "conversion" to this rather extreme position must be seen within its proper political context--a few years later, when he was President, Jefferson denied the same claims when expressed by New Englanders in response to his embargo (see "The Chesapeake Affair"), and Madison certainly denied the similar claims of the Hartford Convention of 1814.

In any case, the argument was ultimately decided in 1803, when Chief Justice John Marshall wrote the opinion in Marbury v. Madison in which he asserted the right of the Supreme Court to adjudge Constitutionality. When Jefferson chose not to challenge the ruling, a precedent was established--which still is in effect today.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: Aug 2008
Location: Hohenwald
Posts: 2,187

United_States     Tennessee

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
You just don't give up, do you?

More bs.

They absolutely represent the people..........of a specific geographical area, that's how it works. Look it up.
countryboy, if there are no people in an area, how many representatives will come from that geographical region?

The matter of apportionment by geographical area is one of convenience. The representatives are not allotted because there is so much land, but in direct proportion to the number of people. That is why Alaska, far the largest state, does not have the most representatives.

I will suggest that you..."look it up."

I have previously pointed out that you seem unwilling to even attempt to understand anything which contradicted your preconceptions. You appear determined to demonstrate that again and again.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 5,221

   
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHighForester View Post
Others argued that the states should be able to determine Constitutionality.
Unlike the ideas of the president doing so, that one is specifically voided by the language of the Constitution itself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by U.S. Constitution
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Article VI.

There is no possible logical construction of that language that permits nullification by the states. It specifically asserts that a state law or even a state constitution has no standing when it conflicts with federal law.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2009
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: Aug 2008
Location: Hohenwald
Posts: 2,187

United_States     Tennessee

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
Unlike the ideas of the president doing so, that one is specifically voided by the language of the Constitution itself:



Article VI.

There is no possible logical construction of that language that permits nullification by the states. It specifically asserts that a state law or even a state constitution has no standing when it conflicts with federal law.
I was not arguing in favor of that position, merely stating the arguments that were current at the time. Some men, even men as smart as Jefferson or as familiar with the Constitution as Madison, advanced that arguments.
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