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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2009
fishjoel's Avatar
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: May 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,255

United_States     Pennsylvania

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
The nation most generally regarded as the world's moral leader is still in the process of killing at LEAST a 100,000 (almost certainly many more) people for doing nothng more than being citizens of a country whose leader personally offended ours. No more than a generation ago that same nation killed several more hundred thousands in a small nation that wanted to do nothing more than run its economy as it saw fit. Two generations ago, and still in living memory, the world killed some 40 millions as part of a war largely brought on by one of the jewels of civilization systematically executing 13 million people for being of the wrong ethnicity.

Try putting forth on this very board the wild notions that the general populace shouldn't be allowed the instuments of mass murder, or that killing inoffensive animals for the pure pleasure of it is somehow morally repugnant, then let's discuss how ready humanity is to utterly eschew violence.
If I'm understanding you correctly...we are in agreement. Humanity will never be able to reach the sort of government that is touted by the anarchy system. There will always be plenty who will want to kill/subjugate their fellow man.
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2009
dblack's Avatar
U.S. House Representative

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Philadelphia PA
Posts: 589

   
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishjoel View Post
There will always be plenty who will want to kill/subjugate their fellow man.
I don't buy that. In fact, I think we're much closer to a critical mass of people who reject violence than we realize. Seriously, ask around, talk to your friends and relatives. The vast majority of people today eschew violence NOT because they're afraid of getting caught, or because government prevents it, but because they think it's wrong. It's a fairly small minority who seek violence as a way to solve problems. And all too often they end up working for the government.

The biggest problem we have today is that people accept that notion that killing on behalf of the state is somehow exempt from the morality. We've even bought into the idea that such violence should be glorified. We'll have to get past that one before real progress is made.
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,339

   
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishjoel View Post
If I'm understanding you correctly...we are in agreement. Humanity will never be able to reach the sort of government that is touted by the anarchy system. There will always be plenty who will want to kill/subjugate their fellow man.
How much of that is simple States' rights; or religious freedom?

With a more perfect Union of States at the interState level, we could ensure a republican form of government, anywhere there is an excessive amount of anarchy. It could be modeled after our own Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Or, funded UN mandates could solve much of that issue if it were implemented, where public works can do the most good: third world anarchies.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
jviehe's Avatar
President

 
Member Since: Jan 2004
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 15,479

United_States    
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahmota View Post
Well most likely first step would be to withdraw all federal support for texas. Second step would be to declare any laws saying that null and void. third step send in federal marshalls or or FBI to arest anyone who continued to act in such a treaasonous and disrespectful manner. If the FBI agents where attacked or other aggessive actions where taken then the military or other federal agents would go in and pacify the dogs. It would be the civil war all over again. And the same results would occur as before the states that resist or defy the federal government would be dfeated, punished and brought back into the fold with their aggressive diobedience forgiven if they promise to be good and obedient.
Im sure Texas would be happy to have all federal support withdrawn, and to defend their soverignty by force. I dont think the federal govt would win this time however. Id love to see the news coverage of the federal govt ordering the military to shoot Texans because they dont want cap and trade, or healthcare, or oppresive taxes.
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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2009
U.S. House Representative

 
Member Since: Jan 2009
Location: Appalachia
Posts: 608

Ohio    
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

You really dont have a clue as to what would happen do you? These "heroic texans" you wanna hold up would be nothign more than criminal dogs. They would be in violation of Federal law and would pay the same price as any other criminal. If they resisted or even worse fired on Federal agents there would be another Waco sized hole in Texas.

Quote:
defend their soverignty
What soverignty? They are a state of the Federal Union. They are part of the United States of America and as was settled by the Civil War the United States Federal Law trumps, beats, and can tell state law what to go do with itself. There is no such thing as state soverignty in the modern USA. States rights is dead and buried and forgotten. Get over the civil war was won by the good guys who wanted to preserve protect and defnd the nation as a whole and not fight for slavery. We are a Federal Union. Texas is just one of 50 states that has no right to dictate terms to the federal government. They just need to sit down STFU and be good little boys and girls and do what they are told. Either that or be punished like any other criminal treasonous traitorous dog licking scumbags.
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2009
Lettuce Head's Avatar
Town Council Member
Garden Variety Vegetable

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: These United States
Posts: 96

United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rude Boy View Post
I wonder where all these states rights advocates were when Bush was invoking his "Unitary Executive" policies? Did they just suddenly become aware?

Lettuce Head, I know you're new (as am I), but answer honestly, were you as alarmed about Bush's policies to accrue more power to the executive as I was?
Honestly, I was clueless. In my case I suddenly became aware. And, no, I don't like what happened there. Call it stupidity, complacency, whatever, something didn't seem right so I started to look into things. Seems to me I should start with the Constitution itself to learn what is what.

It led me to start this post, which by the way, is helping me greatly.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2009
fishjoel's Avatar
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: May 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,255

United_States     Pennsylvania

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahmota View Post
Well most likely first step would be to withdraw all federal support for texas. Second step would be to declare any laws saying that null and void. third step send in federal marshalls or or FBI to arest anyone who continued to act in such a treaasonous and disrespectful manner. If the FBI agents where attacked or other aggessive actions where taken then the military or other federal agents would go in and pacify the dogs. It would be the civil war all over again. And the same results would occur as before the states that resist or defy the federal government would be dfeated, punished and brought back into the fold with their aggressive diobedience forgiven if they promise to be good and obedient.
Your scenario is a little naive. You honestly think, given that situation, all of the FBI and military would follow the orders of the government to put them down? The majority of the military are conservatives. I know if that situation came up I would, more than likely, be on th side of Texas. Texas also has a certain amount of military equipment with the National Guard. Also that whole block of states would probably join Texas (Oklahoma/Utah/Arizona/New Mexico/Kansas/Louisiana/Mississippi/etc....). I'm sorry, but your little dream world imagination of the whole US united against a stand alone Texas just doesn't hold water.
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A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009
Retro Fit's Avatar
Governor

 
Member Since: Sep 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 538

United_States    
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
What soverignty? They are a state of the Federal Union. They are part of the United States of America and as was settled by the Civil War the United States Federal Law trumps, beats, and can tell state law what to go do with itself. There is no such thing as state soverignty in the modern USA. States rights is dead and buried and forgotten. Get over the civil war was won by the good guys who wanted to preserve protect and defnd the nation as a whole and not fight for slavery. We are a Federal Union. Texas is just one of 50 states that has no right to dictate terms to the federal government. They just need to sit down STFU and be good little boys and girls and do what they are told. Either that or be punished like any other criminal treasonous traitorous dog licking scumbags.
You have some control issues you need to work out? The Federal government is not the states Master. You talk like the states should bow down to Federal power. Without the states, there is no federal government. Perhaps it is you who should STFU.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009
countryboy's Avatar
County Executive

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 392

United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Perhaps it is you who should STFU.
Perhaps?
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009
jviehe's Avatar
President

 
Member Since: Jan 2004
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 15,479

United_States    
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
Perhaps?
Why even bothering arguing with that. Some people are just crazy.
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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009
countryboy's Avatar
County Executive

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 392

United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by jviehe View Post
Why even bothering arguing with that. Some people are just crazy.
The only part I have an argument with is the "perhaps" part.

I say he definitely needs to STFU.

I don't know where people get the idea that the 10th Amendment is somehow null and void. I think it's wishful thinking.
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009
jviehe's Avatar
President

 
Member Since: Jan 2004
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 15,479

United_States    
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
The only part I have an argument with is the "perhaps" part.

I say he definitely needs to STFU.

I don't know where people get the idea that the 10th Amendment is somehow null and void. I think it's wishful thinking.
If youve read his other posts, its just more of the same. No capacity for rational debate.
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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009
Lettuce Head's Avatar
Town Council Member
Garden Variety Vegetable

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: These United States
Posts: 96

United_States     Ohio

Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Last Friday Palin signed Sovereignty Resolution

Quote:
Palin Signs Alaska Sovereignty Resolution
Posted on 13 July 2009
by Michael Boldin
Palin Signs Alaska Sovereignty Resolution|Tenth Amendment Center

On Friday, July 10th, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin signed House Joint Resolution 27 (HJR27), sponsored by State Rep. Mike Kelly. The resolution “claims sovereignty for the state under the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and granted to the federal government by the Constitution of the United States.”

The House passed the resolution by a vote of 37-0 (3 not voting) and the Senate passed it by a vote of 40-0.

Six other states have had both houses of their legislature pass similar resolutions - Tennessee, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oklahoma and Louisiana - Alaska joins Tennessee as the second to have such a resolution signed by the Governor.

A GROWING MOVEMENT

Passage of this resolution appears to be part of what is now a growing state-level resistance to the federal government on various levels. Similar 10th Amendment resolutions have been introduced in 37 states around the country, and various states are considering single-issue legislation in direct contravention to federal laws.

Most recently, the Arizona Legislature passed a measure for public approval on the 2010 state ballot that would give Arizona voters the opportunity to nullify, or opt out, of any potential national health care legislation.

Since 2007, more than two dozen states have passed legislation refusing to implement the Real ID act of 2005. In response, the federal government has recently announced that they want to “repeal and replace” the law due to a rebellion by states.

Pending legislation in states around the country also includes preventing state law enforcement officials from enforcing federal laws, refusing federal gun regulations, refusing to send a state’s national guard to any duty other than what the constitution authorizes, legalizing marijuana for various purposes and more.
The Real ID Act has been faced with friction from the States. Perhaps the posturing from the States will have some effect on what the Feds can or will do in the future.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009
U.S. House Representative

 
Member Since: Jan 2009
Location: Appalachia
Posts: 608

Ohio    
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Your scenario is a little naive. You honestly think, given that situation, all of the FBI and military would follow the orders of the government to put them down?
Actually I dont think you have been paying attention to the way the world works. States rights and the 10th amendment have been dead since the end of the civil war when states tried that whole states rights crap last time. They had military force applied to them when they committed treason.
You act like every Texan would turn on their own government and commit treason. Ther ewould be quite a few loyal citizens who would not go along with any disloyal action like you are proposing.
Yes I do believe that the federal government would send the FBI in to arrest the leaders who are calling for seccession or disobedience of federal law or anyone who has broken the federal law. If those FBI agents where fired upon or killed then the criminals would be treated as such and sufficient force would be applied to arrest them and bring peace back to the region. That the rule of law cannot and must not be disobeyed just because some jerkwad doesnt like the current ideology in the White house. Tough the scale of power has the Federal Government right at the top.

Quote:
The only part I have an argument with is the "perhaps" part.

I say he definitely needs to STFU
So your preciouos first amendment right to free speech only applies when it is somethign that the right wing nutjobs agree with? I see. Not gonna happen.

Quote:
If youve read his other posts, its just more of the same. No capacity for rational debate.
Yeah like you're a poster boy for that yourself.....
__________________
“If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of
a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.”

– George W. Bush in Washington, D.C., Dec. 18, 2000
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,339

   
Re: States Tell Fed to Cease & Desist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahmota View Post
Well most likely first step would be to withdraw all federal support for texas. Second step would be to declare any laws saying that null and void. third step send in federal marshalls or or FBI to arest anyone who continued to act in such a treaasonous and disrespectful manner. If the FBI agents where attacked or other aggessive actions where taken then the military or other federal agents would go in and pacify the dogs. It would be the civil war all over again. And the same results would occur as before the states that resist or defy the federal government would be dfeated, punished and brought back into the fold with their aggressive diobedience forgiven if they promise to be good and obedient.
Why would this issue not be settled in court? How would the theory of nullification be adjudicated if the several states refuse to recognize any federal authority concerning powers delegated to the general government of the Union?

The power tax is specifically enumerated.
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