Is the broader cultural acceptance/demarginalization of pornography in the US a liberating event for women in the United States or demoralizing/dehumanizing of women?

In a 2002 interview in the magazine Esquire, Hugh Hefner (Playboy founder), made this comment:

Women were the major beneficiary of the sexual revolution. It permitted them to be natural sexual beings, as men are. That's where feminism should have been all along. Unfortunately, within feminism, there has been a puritan, prohibitionist element that is antisexual.

Esquire interview at MSNBC

Do you agree?

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...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

I'll bite.

I think Hefner has a very good point here and that feminists are fighting the wrong battle taking a puritan stance towards pornography - it is like they are shooting themselves in the foot just as they have the freedom to walk.

To put my point more bluntly, I think the feminist anti-pornography stance just reinforces the 'female victim' syndrome that is anything but 'liberating' for females.

I'd say there's a radical difference between pornography and erotica. Sadly, pornography is profoundly demeaning to women and to men, but erotica is something all together different, IMO.

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

From the book I'm currently reading- Female Chauvinist Pigs by Ariel Levy:
She's got a point.

I don't think women espousing puritan sexuality is liberating but I never could figure out how embracing the traditional role of women in pornography is liberating either.

Can there be pornography without the demoralizing characterization of women?

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

I agree 100 %.

I will elaborate a little bit later.

Would you elaborate a little?

Is pole dancing for your spouse erotica?
Are short skirts, high heels and low cut neck lines erotica?

Or is this an indication that pornography, (and the characterization encompassed therein), is becoming more mainstream?

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

Women don't have to become shameless and promiscuous to be liberated.

Only that they have the option if they so choose. That is liberty.

The feminist puritan position (on this issue) applies just a new 'strait-jacket' for feminine behavior no different than the old one. There's no liberty in that. And if there is no liberty for women, that can't be called equality.

Sure - there's lots, though it is usually called "gay porn"

Seriously though, I think the answer is yes - but it awaits female producers and female customers to drive it. So long as men dominate the market for porn, porn will be designed to appeal to the lowest common male denominator.

Granted, erotica is in the eye of the beholder, but for me it's something that's pleasurable for all involved, whereas mainstream pornography strikes me as frequently being not at all pleasurable for the women involved, even painful.

And yes, the examples you mention strike me as erotic rather than pornographic.

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

Pogo is alluding to an important point in his post...erotica or Pornography.

By my own definition I would say erotica is any media that portrays nudity/sexual interaction where the only intent is to raise sexual arousal.

Pornography is media that portrays nudity/sexual interaction in an obscene manner.

I can't imagine a single person who would argue that a "circle jerk" scene where a dozen men whack off and ejaculate on a womens face, and then she drinks a glass of mixed sperm as anything but TOTAL dehumanization of women. Scenes of "fisting" where men jam their fist into a woman's vagina is a "liberating" moment for women.
Or internet porn where they purposely place skinny 18 year olds with gray overweight men..portraying child molestation - as a great way to show girls are equal to men.

Pogo is right...I just elaborated his post.

Thanks.

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

I would say that the only person that could answer the question of it's liberation is the woman these things are being done to and obviously she had the liberty to choose to do so in exchange for money. Maybe the definitions of liberation are different. I think of liberation as freedom to choose.

__________________
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Sure they do. But if pornography isn't enjoyable by women, why do they do it?
For that matter, why do women go to traditional strip clubs (where women strip).

Is it natural for women to be the object of mans desire but not vice-versa?

(PS-Careful not to jump to conclusions about what I'm thinking - I'm seriously looking for feedback is all)

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

But then why are there more women than men involved in the production of pornography. If its about money, you'd think both men and women would have equal proclivity.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

I think economics has a lot to do with it, and young people tend to lack good judgement. I suspect many of the girls really don't know what they're getting themselves into.

__________________
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?

--Hunter S. Thompson

Is it safe to assume that you believe both pornography and erotica involve sexual arousal?

Then you must help me understand what is the boundary here.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn