Somehow the Right Wingers have managed to concoct this story that Obama is an elitist, as if HE thinks he's somehow better than anybody else, nothing can be further from the truth.

Oh, youre right, both candidates are salt of the earth, I think.

but Obama invited it with this "bitterness" comments. It really was an ignorant statement about the mentality of poor whites. Talking down to Americans is never a good idea. But even with that, Obama's not going to be tagged with the elitist label the way Bush 41 and Kerry were because that's not who he is. So long as he avoids dumb statements like that again.

They've managed to paint the word "elite" as a bad word, even though its commonly used as badge in many other areas. Wouldn't you want your leader to be an elite...to be the best, brightest and strongest at what he or she does? Do you really want your leaders to be "regular guys and gals" that you could have a beer with? Really?



You want them to be the best, but you want them to be down to earth and see themselves as just like us and not above us. It's fine for Barack Obama to say, "I'm a better lawyer than the average person, I'm also a better speaker, and I'm pretty good at basketball too." It's another thing entirely to equate those talents and educational advantages with being superior to your fellow man. That's what gets under people's skin.

Getting to the subject (and in addition to baseball), here is something Americans value: We value the "rags to riches" stories. We admire, idolize, and grant leeway to those who have risen well above the socio-economic class in which they were born. They are heros to Americans.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

There's something to that, and two of our most successful Presidents had that background: Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.

Right. To add to how Americans' idolization (and their valuing) of these folks differs from some countries in Europe is that we value them rather than marginalize their success by calling these folks "bourgeoisie", for example. I've heard way too much of that.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

If Obama had never said that clinging/guns/religion statement. Was there not truth to that? Aren't rural Americans known for just that? Think "Beverly Hillbillies." He wasn't talking down to anyone, he simply stated an observation. The Right Wing took that and boy did they run with it.

About the best now. When you were in highschool didn't you ever hang with the class valedictorian or the jocks? I hope you were able to. I was able to hang with them, from nerds to jocks, I was in-between...they were really no different. So I don't get this thing the Right Wing Loons are trying to create about him being so high he can't be reached. Again...nothing can be more further from the truth.

We should all aspire to be as articulate and well-spoken as him. Not saying non-existent words like "New-coo-ler" on a consistent basis and run around bumping into open doors in foreign countries.

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Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand.
Cardinal de Retz

"My mother would have said that a woman voting for John McCain
is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders." - Cecile Richards, TX

Whether or not someone is an elitist has nothing to do with their upbringing or background (although those things can influence whether or not someone becomes an elitist), it is an attitude about oneself and your values and opinions, particularly in how you relate those values and opinions to others.


As for the LA Times column, its basic flaw is in failing to make a distinction between "elite" and "elitist". They basically are arguing that since the root of "elitist/elitism" is merely a reference to merit or qualityCertainly when applied to an area where there is an objective way to rate the relative talents and merits of individuals in a particular field then "elite" is simply referring to those who are objectively the best, irregardless of their own views on the matters. Someone who is among the "elite" can themselves be personally humble and modest, not thinking that being better than other at something makes them better than other people. Someone can listen to, and enjoy "elite" music, without being an elitist. A non-elitist simply realizes that music, or art, or many other similar things are matters of personal taste and opinion, and that they simply prefer particular types of music. Elitist deign to make conclude that such matters of subjective taste are actually better or superior as an objective matter, even going so far as to conclude that others who do not share this obvious (in their opinion) reality don't merely have different tastes, but are actually wrong and looked down upon for it.

Elitism or elitists, as most people refer to it in the area of politics are people who consider themselves not as the most qualified representative of broadly held views, but as someone whose views are simply wiser or better than those which are broadly held (for example, telling people that they should be more concerned with learning French and Spanish than they should with immigrants to this country learning English). It is exemplified by being dismissive of views they do not share as having no legitimate or rational intellectual basis (such as seeing people as 'clinging to guns and religion' not because of the affirmative beliefs and values they hold, but as a reflection of "bitterness" over something else).

On a broader application, elitism is a view that there should be rule to certain extent by an "elite" (who neccesarily reflect the values and views of the elitist rather than the society as a whole). I would argue that to a certain extent, those who believe in a "living constitution" where the understood meaning of the Constitution is considered fluid, but that the actual direction and details of that fluidity is left not in the hands of democratically elected representatives of the people, by nine elite lawyers who are utterly unrepresentative of the nation in any way whatsoever.

Finally, elitism can rear its ugly head on both sides of the political spectrum, there are conservative elites just as their are liberal elites. However, one of the things I have long believed is that liberal elites are far more likely to consider themselves better people as a result of their views, while conservative elites are more likely to merely consider themselves better thinkers as a result of their views. As I have discussed elsewhere, this manifests itself in the tendency of liberals (more often than conservatives) to ascribe morally objectionable motivations or apathy to the policy prefernences of those they disagree with (if you oppose welfare, it is because you don't care about poor people, it couldn't possibly be that you care just as much as welfare supporters, but genuinely believe it does more harm than good in the long-run).

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"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

He was absolutely talking down to them, he wasn't merely making an observation that rural americans have a particular affinity for guns and religion, he used a term with an overtly negative connotation ("clinging") and was unambiguously saying that they do so for reasons of bitterness. There was nothing in his statement that left open the possibility that their "clinging" had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with bitterness over anything, but rather than deeply held hopes and values.

And for the record, taking something like Obama's personal observation and his opinion regarding the reason for it as simply a matter of fact, rather than a deeply debateable point is itself a sign of elitism.

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"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

You're right.

Its a hard sell to now affirm that listeners of "elite music" don't necessarily have to be elitist themselves. I think it goes contrary to your point, because the same premise can be applied to Obama himself. e.g. - he does elite things, but is not necessarily an elitist himself.

Taken out of context, as I will address further down.

You made this point already I'd say. I guess more affirmation. Ok..cool.

This is where I think you're definitely going wrong. Who presents themselves as more elite than the religious right, claiming that everyone else is completely wrong and lacking morals? This whole elite thing has just NOW been applied, albeit falsely to a dem, Obama. The Right Wing has had reign on that label all these years. And yes, they do do more harm than good in the long-run. I believe its just convenient for the Right to label and perhaps even believe Obama sees himself as an elitist simply out of usual party politics, clearly the rest of the nation have no problem with his attitude or tone, as is evident in the MASSIVE support he's gotten and continues to get thus far.

Like I said, taken out of context. He was referring to their response to the deteroiating condition of the economy and the rising price of gas, being upset or bitter about it. Totally a valid sentiment, but taken out of context by the right wing and the pundits for dramatic effect. Its not talking down to someone or a group of people when you attempt to convey what you sense from them, as wrong as it may come off. His message was totally overlooked...by SOME.

Again, due to lack of context, you are quick to take that route. Its a fact that Americans are upset about the state of the country? No? Isn't it fair to replace "upset" with "bitter" or vice versa? Isn't it at LEAST plausible?

I rest my case.

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Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand.
Cardinal de Retz

"My mother would have said that a woman voting for John McCain
is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders." - Cecile Richards, TX

If Obama had never said that clinging/guns/religion statement. Was there not truth to that? Aren't rural Americans known for just that? Think "Beverly Hillbillies." He wasn't talking down to anyone, he simply stated an observation. The Right Wing took that and boy did they run with it.


No, it's not true. Yes, there is bitterness, but that's not why they are religious and have guns. They are religious and have guns when they are happy too. He might as well have said black people cling to rap music because they are angry.

Good point.

__________________


Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand.
Cardinal de Retz

"My mother would have said that a woman voting for John McCain
is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders." - Cecile Richards, TX

Money, Power. Not because we are evil but because we are practical. We may argue forever on what we should accomplish but we must have money and power before we can accomplish anything, so money and power are our basic requirements, the things we value above all else.

Money and power indeed. Above all else, including the wellfare of the citizens of this nation. As is evident in the Big Pharm vs. America situation. As is evident in the obesity and disease of the nation.

__________________


Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand.
Cardinal de Retz

"My mother would have said that a woman voting for John McCain
is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders." - Cecile Richards, TX

I don't mean that really. I mean like Obama with the money from contributors vs matching funds. Obama had much more money, and it is money that will help him win, so he took the money and nobody on either side really faults him for it. A pol must win before he does anything and everybody recognizes that, it's a fundamental value...Another ex is Kerry, Kerry got no sympathy for losing because he wouldn't fight as dirty as the Republicans attacked him. You must win before anything and in any way legal. You must get the power.

What are American Values?

Moving forward. Moving forward in the right direction. Our country was made to move forward at it's own pace. Our constitution was made to be tough. Tough not in the way that it was made to prevent change, but tough in the way that it forces people to think. Thinking forces change not for the sake of change, but to bring about change while moving forward. Our constitution reminds us what direction is the right direction and prevents laws which moves us backwards. Moving forward means giving rights without limiting rights and demeaning the people which inturn increases the quality of living. Moving backwards does the oposite. Our constitution encourages change without demanding it.

Education and freedom of speech. Education provides us with the tools to interpret the constitution correctly. Our constitution allows us freedom of speech. Speech gives us the right to discuess topics that are controversial while education allows us to accept ideas that abide by the constitution. This combination allows us to move forward at the pace which the population is ready to accept ideas that move us forward.

So, what ARE American values ?

What IS "moving forward" ?

What are "rights" and "change" ?

Everybody has their own ideas on these things.