What is the point of even having people for models anymore? Why not just throw together random parts and make the person you want.

BTW-I was just kidding about my pic! I wish I knew how to photoshop myself into something like that video Melanie posted!!!

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Dear Santa: Don't bother coming to my house this year...I've been naughty and it was worth it, you judgemental son of a bitch!!

Democrats are sexy. Who ever heard of a nice piece of elephant?

Mine is surprisingly accurate. It's every other picture of Obama that's been photoshopped.

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“If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.” - Carl Sagan

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Dear Santa: Don't bother coming to my house this year...I've been naughty and it was worth it, you judgemental son of a bitch!!

Democrats are sexy. Who ever heard of a nice piece of elephant?

Uhm...OK. Well, I just came on and read the previous pages.

Maybe I'll just take my life in my hands and jump off the deep end here.

MAYBE this woman IS lighter at certain times of the year. As in, 'blacks tan too.'

I have black friends some dark and some light. The light ones avoid the sun to keep from getting dark and the dark ones avoid the sun to keep from becoming 'charcoal.'

If it's fair for white women to try and look more tan, then why is the reverse not true for black women? And if you are going there, then is it unethical for a black woman to straighten or perm her hair? What about when a white woman straightens or perms hers?

My thoughts are this: This is America where we can look like we damned well please in person or in print. Liz Taylor knew this half a century ago. She taught us well!

And BTW, OSB, in the pic of me in from of the Great Pyramid, I may have been old and wrinkled, but it was NOT touched up.

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ahoy oh wise O'Sullivan Bere!

i just returned to port and was readin' the first few pages 'o responses to this thread.

i was curious, fer those folks who have a problem with the "shoop" done on the lass in question....

"whats yer feelin' on plastic surgery?"

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

Blacks tan--and burn--in the sun like any person. I took that into consideration before I started the thread. I checked loads of pictures, and I've seen her many times at different times. And I even checked the press photo to make sure it wasn't just like that on one site. I'm also aware of photoshopping, camera tricks, etc. I also considered how often and how many times the press photo has been circulated (even left up on the site), etc. It is clearly intentional IMO, and it has more than just wanted to 'lighten up' but also 'youngen up,' 'chisel up' etc. My conclusion led to the OP and why I wanted to get a thematic discussion going given I considered this one to be a good set example piece inviting all sorts of 'within included' subjects for a large thematic discussion that has good conversational value.

Good questions, and hence why I started the thread to spur conversation. For example, I've tanned at times myself, especially in high school and college days when I was peak of the prime. And many black women also aim for 'whiter' looks.

But like most things, I recognise there is a point where ethics, negative societal repercussions, etc, enter into the individual and/or societal equation. For example, there is a long and ugly history behind looking 'light skinned' black, and obviously both light skinned and dark skinned suffered as a result of that. It was a lucrative business in the slave days, and a societal adverse effect was that many whites and blacks came to see being light skinned as being attractive and being dark as unattractive by comparison with lots of hangover and adverse effects that have carried down and it's certainly had its effects on everyone black, white, and others.

Being light skinned black/biracial has its own beauty merits for sure, but when you see stuff like this:



as the 'beautiful one', it's not hard to envision the kinds of ramifications this inculcates and filters down to society for black women, black men, white men, white women, and any other men and women. Take the black community for example. The favouring of light skinned and white women as 'trophies' for many black men is one side effect. 'Whitening' their looks to some or even extensive degrees to look whiter has been a well observed and discussed issue in the black community. And in the white community, the past on wanting lighter skinned over darker is a tragic one, and it's not a major jump to see how that still has ways of filtering down to today, even if one isn't fully aware of how it got that way, and especially with continuous image bombardments. Take the old pictures and cartoons for example where blacks were made into jokes with nappy hair, big lips, pitch black skin, or into scary characters in the same fashion, etc. Stuff like that had plenty of adverse effects and filtered down.

Like most people, I like to look 'good.' I brush my teeth, use toothpaste with teeth whitener, comb and cut my hair, etc.

And insofar as photography, obviously loads of aspects make personal and sense, including for airbrushings. Take a high school yearbook. IMO, it's a good thing that the senior pictures are airbrushed to remove acne, etc. Otherwise, it would be a shitty memory book of one's best days, and there are very understandable reasons that relate to a very specific and limited period in one's life. To borrow from Cari's example of her avatar, I'm quite sure she would want a huge zit airbrushed off if it was her wedding picture. These are easy examples in the personal sphere.

And in the social/economic sphere, there are plenty of understandable reasons why people 'doll themselves up' and/or even want a airbrush 'touch up': marketing themselves and wares, common vanity humans have (self would be included as I wouldn't want bad pictures taken) etc.

But ethics do come into such considerations. Sometimes, it's even legal lines, such as a previously discussed example of so overly and totally airbrushing older models for wrinkle-free creams, etc, where IMO it becomes outright false advertisement, but yet it's commonly tolerated.

But generally, it's the ethics that is more at issue given First Amendment protections, business concerns, etc. For example, it's no secret that some women go out of their way in unhealthy ways given what's been marketed, e.g. "I want to look like Kate Moss because that is what is attractive now" whilst starving and puking themselves or ingesting chemicals and/or or wanting to spend $500,000 sculpting themselves with chisels, hammers, vacuums, implantations, shots, etc before they can feel good about themselves, and if they can't do or afford it then getting self-destructive in depression over it. And a less discussed but existing issue is the rise in males with eating disorders, visiting the local Dr Fixalls, etc, given the effects of marketing.

That's why I felt creating this thread had loads of potential for a wide and useful discussion and it indeed has spurred plenty of it.

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See above post to Sunshine for starters. Obviously, people have their personal liberties, and I understand as a human the vanities we all have and like to indulge. Professionals and marketers also have their stock in trade to defend and market. But like anything, where the lines get crossed into counterproductivity and/or on account of it is a good and thought provoking conversation IMO, and how media marketing has such influences in creating.

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Well, 'vanity' has been considered many things up to and including a sin. So 'ethics' is not a really new twist. However, I have no doubt that ethics as a concept when it comes to vanity will most likely be as futile as sin as a concept when it comes to vanity.

Now, the reasons for wanting to change skin tone may be different as your posts seems to suggest, e.g. WE tan to look more healthy and buff. THEY tan to look like they are more racially white. So, it seems you are saying that the problem is in the reason rather than in the act.

I have had several opportunities to work around a number of black people. It is indeed a cultural thing to value whiteness. In fact when the black women I worked around were sniping about other black women their comments were things like 'she thinks she is white' for one who is more 'uppity' than they thought she should be. Most black physicians I know have white wives, or very light skinned black wives, and my last medical director was a case in point. Another medical director I worked for whas a black female and she had a white husband. The financial success of the black individual seems to make it easier for them to feed this cultural value. However, I do know one black woman who discourages blacks who are not wealthy from seeking out white partners. She says 'that brings bad things' referencing her opinion that quality white people will not consider marrying blacks. She makes NO bones about it.

Cultural values run deep. And cultural values are not easily changed, as you would know being Irish. And what I have learned working with blacks is they don't want someone who is white to try and change their cultural values, particularly as they related to race and vanity.

But more, we ALL are going to use whatever resources we have to feed our own vanity - especially women.

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"Vanity is definitely my favourite sin. So basic. Self-love. The all-natural opiate.” The Devil, The Devil's Advocate. This is always going to be there as part of human nature and always be big business as a result.

Imagery angling does have its influences, though, in shaping public opinions on what is attractive. For example, remember Marilyn Monroe? She was far more representative of a good looking 'normal body' type. And before that, the full body figure was what was marketed as beautiful. I can even look at old paintings of female models and note how the fully body/heavy look was the 'in' thing back then.

The ultra-thin look is fairly recent actually, starting with the British model 'Twiggy' and it was marketed as the 'new good look' and took off from there. Then the combo started of ultra-thin plus huge tits, airbrush mania, etc. There's some good marketing in that going for Mother Nature' vanity and physical attraction, but it's also been having its mentioned social side effects given it goes so often into Mother Artificial. As Cari put it, why bother even having models anymore? Just do a computer image of the unrealistic goddess. At least the public will know it's just beauty in art, not a realistic aim.

I'm not saying it's unethical per se to do such things at all, but any kinds of business trends, marketing trends, etc, do have a 'cause and effect' and how they should be handled raises ethics questions in business and social responsibility, addressing, etc. It's a trade and practice that IMO has gotten a 'free pass' on these things whilst most businesses and professions already have to do these things, even to the point of unenforced legal violations IMO (using totally airbrushed models for anti-age products, failing to disclose vigorous exercising with diet product testimonials, etc). For example, taverns--an obvious trade with fun and social consequences--commonly have things like 'free soda or refills for designated drivers,' signs for taxis, bouncer policies to police the place with house rules for safety, etc. The trade has its social and business merits, but also knows there are consequences of the trade, and takes some measures to recognise and address them. And that's true with any business.

There is certainly truth in all of that.

Again, though, history as previously explained has had plenty of influence in it. Social presentations and marketing played its part as also mentioned. That's why eventually black actors worked to eventually start casting blacks as businessmen, cops, movie heroes, politicians, etc, instead of the old ugly stereotypes of janitors, minstrels, layabouts, drunkards and dope addicts, boobs, criminals, etc. Their sentiments--correct IMO--was that both blacks and whites needed to see that in order to get a change of public perception of blacks being predisposed or destined for ridicule, fear and/or low expectations.

That's not to say that the black community can use all that as an open ended excuse. Social responsibility and ethics cut both ways, whether white, black, yellow, red, etc. The public has its own side of the aisle to mind. For example, it's not lost on me how Michelle Obama--who has some white blood but is medium skinned rather than light skinned--is viewed as attractive. Beyond basic natural gifts, people 'see' it more because she's accomplished, educated, well dressed, keeps a good family structure, etc. She looks 'good' because she's done well and presents herself well.

Living a quality and productive life is a great way to bring confidence, success, happiness, etc. And others pick up on that and see it as 'attractive.' In fact, the mind works in a way that no matter where on the natural gift side people start out, they'll be seen as more physically attractive if they have loads of redeeming qualities, and less attractive if they are not (jerks, losers, etc).

People and businesses (which are run by people) have their own responsibilities to play. Often times, it's too many excuses from both ends for self-serving, self-benefiting and self-excusing reasons. The trick is not letting either one off the hook and trying to find the right balances.

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ahoy O'Sullivan Bere!

matey, i think this be a though provokin' thread ye put up. i sorta be dealin' with these issues fer decades now...more so since the triumph 'o digital photography.

folks just want to look good, matey...and why not? in this fearsome land 'o ours, beauty and youth have primacy o'er all. i still remember readin' a NYT story a few years back that cited the beautiful denizens 'o our land get paid more than folks who be doomed to look ordinary.

if ye had seen me when i used to shoot fer modelin' agencies up in the grand city 'o New York, many 'o these same questions would arise, aye?
what are the ethics fer a push-up bra?
a padded bra?
a perfect row 'o capped teeth?
high end makeup artists to transform a face?
fake eyelashes?
bathin' faces in nothin' but soft, diffused light?
dealin' with a lass whose hobby be heroin (because nothing causes weight loss like H, a big phenomenon durin' the grunge era fashion courtesy 'o Todd Oldham. Kate Moss used to ingest heroin like we pirates eats limes).

'tis all fake, matey. thats what folks want. its what the consumer desires.

fantasy > reality

i think that thar be no lines that cannot be crossed when producin' photography fer public relations purposes or advertisin'. heck, on a daily basis i trim torsos 'o the lasses...magically remove backfat in women who be fiercely determined to wear strapless gowns...i've wielded me mighty "liquify" tool and given tiny bits 'o rhinoplasty to damsels...i've trimmed a thighs and i've "softened wrinkles". never, once, has anyone ever said, "why do i look so good? thats not me!".

once, long ago, i used to worry that i was takin' liberties with reality and me mitts would tremble as i wielded me two-handed weapon, PHOTOSHOP (arr!)...yet much to me surprise and amusement, no one asks for less...they only hint at wanting more!

so nowadays, i spends most 'o me production time "enhancing" folks, makin' them more beautiful.

more recently, i've started adjusting buttocks and bust-sizes and still have yet to hear a word 'o protest from me clients.

be it ethical? i don't know the answer to that, me friend.

is public relations and advertising often willfully misleadin'?

aye, i'd say so.

...but thats the world we live in, me hearty.

*resumes swabbin' the decks*

*salutes*

- MeadHallPirate

Well, we can't ALL be mother Theresa!

As much 'do gooding' as I do, I still like to 'put on the dog' every now and then and that means a lot of things, an expensive outfit, expensive jewelry, make up, French perfume, occasionally even nail polish. (But I'm not going to spend what a car would cost over 5 years having my nails done.) I recall a similar thread on another board and when all the women got in on it, one if the guys said the person who started the thread had managed to get himself in the middle of a hen party. And while it seems that the 'cock of the walk' has abdicated, the hens may still come back around to bite you on the ass here, OSB!

I do, however, get the gist of what you are saying, though. But self esteem is a difficult thing to quantify. In reality though, from studies I have done, self esteem improves as one ages, and is tied to accomplishment. Still, though, how much is enough in the way of 'fixing up' and how much is too much?

Some women are just high maintenance models, while others simply don't do anything to try and fix up. As a general rule, I just can't put on the dog every day of my life. That would deprive me of sleep which I think generally makes one look better anyway. Women certainly took a step in the direction to which you are pointing when they stopped wearing corsets and girdles. Now, those items are still available, but honestly, I don't know who buys them! God knows I don't. If you don't like my fat you can look the other way....as my Irish mother used to say.

Ofr course being half Irish, I don't look Scandanavian, as you know. Nor would I EVER have that look no matter how much money I spent on plastic surgery. But in some circles smelling like a pork chop will get you a date, and so will looking Irish and not being weighted down with cosmetics.

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And my art teacher who was a portrait artist did exactly what you describe.

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You have some very strange black friends in that they all behave the same way. The light ones avoid the sun and the dark ones do the same. Amazing!

Hehe, what you said is definitely true for my own brother. I got lucky in that I can tan, but my brother burns easy and never tans. For him, it's burn, peel and back to pale. He knows from painful experience that all he's ever going to get from the sun is cancer so he's a Sunblock 300 guy when outside for extended periods on sunny hot days, which is a smart move.

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*hugs Sunshine*

ahoy lass, its been a while!

i took yer example 'o sittin' out by the lake while a small hearthfire burns and have been out sailing the seas, enjoyin' meself.

and whilst a painted portrait be a mighty thing...nothin' fools folks like a photograph.

it makes folks......believe.

*hefts his Nikon D-700*

rawr!

- MeadHallPirate