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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2006
Dormouse Dormouse is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyTed View Post
Lads this is all about Oil... At the moment every barrel of oil in the world has to be bought using dollars.
I don't have any factoids to support this, but I'd guess that maybe half of the oil exported on this planet is sold in US$.

For example, the USA being the world's largest consumer of oil, must pay in Cdn$ or Mexican pesos to buy oil.

And I don't think the Germans or French pay US$ to pay for Russian oil/gas (for example).

Indeed, the largest corporate monster oil companies control less than 25% of the world's oil market. The largest and most powerful oil companies are state owned enterprises in Saudi, Iran, Russia, Nigeria, etc.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2006
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goober goober is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

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Originally Posted by Mad_Michael View Post
I don't have any factoids to support this, but I'd guess that maybe half of the oil exported on this planet is sold in US$.

For example, the USA being the world's largest consumer of oil, must pay in Cdn$ or Mexican pesos to buy oil.

And I don't think the Germans or French pay US$ to pay for Russian oil/gas (for example).

Indeed, the largest corporate monster oil companies control less than 25% of the world's oil market. The largest and most powerful oil companies are state owned enterprises in Saudi, Iran, Russia, Nigeria, etc.
All major oil producers price oil in US Dollars and accept payment in US dollars.
This requires large amounts of US dollars being held by non-US banks and by central banks as a reserve currency to settle these transactions.
Switching to the Euro would force these banks to dump the dollars and buy up Euros to use as a reserve, this would put upward pressure on the Euro and downward pressure on the dollar.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2006
Dormouse Dormouse is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

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Originally Posted by goober View Post
All major oil producers price oil in US Dollars and accept payment in US dollars.
No, only prices are cited in USD for comparison purposes (West Texas Brent or Light Crude taken as the pricing standard).

But the fact is, the USA must convert to Cdn$ to buy Canadian oil. That is a fact. The price may be agree in USD terms, but the payment is in Cdn.

You cannot tell me that Germany pays USD to Russia for oil/gas. That is absurd.

If you are looking for the 'big game' that hurts the USD and helps the Euro, you should be looking at the issue of currency reserves held by Central Banks - that has much greater effect (and bigger numbers) than oil purchases.

And yes, China and Japan (who hold the largest USD reserves in the world) have indicated they intend to diversify by holding at least 50% Euros instead of 100% USD. These shifts have already eliminated the USD 'currency of record' premium that previously existed on the USD. This is the reason that the USD was so over valued for so long - and why the USD has fallen steadily since the intro of the Euro.

USA's getting themselves caught up in the quagmire of Iraq has also put strong downward pressure on the USD.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2006
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cygnus cygnus is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Michael View Post
No, only prices are cited in USD for comparison purposes (West Texas Brent or Light Crude taken as the pricing standard).

But the fact is, the USA must convert to Cdn$ to buy Canadian oil. That is a fact. The price may be agree in USD terms, but the payment is in Cdn.

You cannot tell me that Germany pays USD to Russia for oil/gas. That is absurd.

If you are looking for the 'big game' that hurts the USD and helps the Euro, you should be looking at the issue of currency reserves held by Central Banks - that has much greater effect (and bigger numbers) than oil purchases.

And yes, China and Japan (who hold the largest USD reserves in the world) have indicated they intend to diversify by holding at least 50% Euros instead of 100% USD. These shifts have already eliminated the USD 'currency of record' premium that previously existed on the USD. This is the reason that the USD was so over valued for so long - and why the USD has fallen steadily since the intro of the Euro.

USA's getting themselves caught up in the quagmire of Iraq has also put strong downward pressure on the USD.
The euro actually fell rather heavily against teh dollar when it was first introduced. Most of the Euros gains in the past 4 years or so have been simply recovering all those initial loses. The Euro is actually only trading at about a 8 cent premium to what is was when it first started trading.

http://charts3.barchart.com/chart.as...=BSTK&evnt=adv


Most of the euro gain's i beleive are the product of negative sentiment towards the US and its current administration. The central banks didn't initiate their policies of reducing their dollar holdings till more recently - I think primarily do to alot of accusations of countries like China and Japan holding lots of dollars to depress their currencies against the dollar to support their exports to the US.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2006
CowboyTed CowboyTed is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
In general petrocurrency describes the money in dollars received by a country that exports oil. The US dollar is the only petrocurrency due the fact that the OPEC and other oil producing countries use it to denominate the price of oil.

The Pound sterling is sometimes regarded as petrocurrency thanks to North Sea oil exports. The Australian dollar does not fall in this category, since Australia does not export a significant amount of oil every year.

The Canadian dollar is increasingly viewed as a petrocurrency. As the price of oil rises, oil-related export revenues rise, and thus constitute a larger compononent of Canadian exports. Thus, the movements of the Canadian dollar have become increasingly correlated with price of oil. For example, the exchange rate of Canadian dollars for Japanese Yen (99% of Japan's oil is imported) is 85% correlated with crude prices.

A condition for a currency to become a petrocurrency is its long term stability. Long term stability can only be guaranteed by the volume of reserves the country of the currency has as well as by high oil prices. It is estimated that Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Iran have oil reserves for the next 200 years, which make their currency favorite candidates for petrocurrencies.
Sorry Wiki quote but the facts pan out. While the big producers deal in dollars everyone needs them especially Europe and China. Russia has it's own oil and there is a petroruble market as the is a canadian market.

Iran is trying to setup a Euro market at much discust to OPEC except venezula.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2006
Neal_Van Neal_Van is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

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Originally Posted by scarywoody View Post
So who's going to make us pay this money back or when are we going to start paying it back?
By national debt I believe they mean capital flows. China and Japan produce cheap goods which causes a trade imbalance between imports and exports.
China and Japan are rivals btw and Japans policy is to keep the Yen devalued as until China reevaulates the Yuan. The US meanwhile is dependent on importing resources especially crude oil and causes inflation. The housing bubble will likely cause a deep recession in 2007 in the US and will likely affect it's trade partners like Canada.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2006
Neal_Van Neal_Van is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

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Originally Posted by goober View Post
The structural deficit is over 6%, it's masked by the Social Security Surplus.
The structural deficit for the EU is only 2.6%.
I do think the Euro will replace the dollar, unless we get another Clinton.
The don't have the bond structure. The US is still a mega industrial powerhouse and it will depend on the turn of events. I see the biggest issue being crude oil / energy cost and of course how the idiots in Washington spend money.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2006
Neal_Van Neal_Van is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyTed View Post
Lads this is all about Oil... At the moment every barrel of oil in the world has to be bought using dollars. This includes Iran and Venezula... Thus every country needs to buy dollars to able to buy Oil. 80% of that money is reinvested in the US.

Saddam was the first arab leader to challange this norm, he sold his Oil in euros towards the end. The US had to convert dollars into Euros to buy Oil... The first thing the US did Euro Oil debts to dollars for 1 to 1. This means Iraq lost 20 cents on the dollar for the debt.

Now Iran wants to set up a Euro Oil exchange... The US hawks will never let this happen at any costs... If the EU, China, Japan, Russia, and Indiacan buy oil for Euros the US economy would be severe trouble...
Yes it's about oil. I believe most major commodities are denominated in Greenbacks. If the US was the exporter of crude this would work out quite well.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2006
Neal_Van Neal_Van is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Michael View Post
I don't have any factoids to support this, but I'd guess that maybe half of the oil exported on this planet is sold in US$.

For example, the USA being the world's largest consumer of oil, must pay in Cdn$ or Mexican pesos to buy oil.

And I don't think the Germans or French pay US$ to pay for Russian oil/gas (for example).

Indeed, the largest corporate monster oil companies control less than 25% of the world's oil market. The largest and most powerful oil companies are state owned enterprises in Saudi, Iran, Russia, Nigeria, etc.
Don't forget United Kindom..
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2006
Neal_Van Neal_Van is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Michael View Post
No, only prices are cited in USD for comparison purposes (West Texas Brent or Light Crude taken as the pricing standard).

But the fact is, the USA must convert to Cdn$ to buy Canadian oil. That is a fact. The price may be agree in USD terms, but the payment is in Cdn.

You cannot tell me that Germany pays USD to Russia for oil/gas. That is absurd.

If you are looking for the 'big game' that hurts the USD and helps the Euro, you should be looking at the issue of currency reserves held by Central Banks - that has much greater effect (and bigger numbers) than oil purchases.

And yes, China and Japan (who hold the largest USD reserves in the world) have indicated they intend to diversify by holding at least 50% Euros instead of 100% USD. These shifts have already eliminated the USD 'currency of record' premium that previously existed on the USD. This is the reason that the USD was so over valued for so long - and why the USD has fallen steadily since the intro of the Euro.

USA's getting themselves caught up in the quagmire of Iraq has also put strong downward pressure on the USD.
I think I'm missing something here lads..
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2006
Neal_Van Neal_Van is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Michael View Post
No, only prices are cited in USD for comparison purposes (West Texas Brent or Light Crude taken as the pricing standard).

But the fact is, the USA must convert to Cdn$ to buy Canadian oil. That is a fact. The price may be agree in USD terms, but the payment is in Cdn.

You cannot tell me that Germany pays USD to Russia for oil/gas. That is absurd.

If you are looking for the 'big game' that hurts the USD and helps the Euro, you should be looking at the issue of currency reserves held by Central Banks - that has much greater effect (and bigger numbers) than oil purchases.

And yes, China and Japan (who hold the largest USD reserves in the world) have indicated they intend to diversify by holding at least 50% Euros instead of 100% USD. These shifts have already eliminated the USD 'currency of record' premium that previously existed on the USD. This is the reason that the USD was so over valued for so long - and why the USD has fallen steadily since the intro of the Euro.

USA's getting themselves caught up in the quagmire of Iraq has also put strong downward pressure on the USD.
I don't know if that's true about prices being cited only in USD but it seems to make sense from what you've stated. Do you have any source or article to help learn more about this or bring to light.

OPEC transactions are completed in USD.. According to your arguement it should not make a bit of difference to switch from USD to Euros as a currency peg.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2006
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doniston doniston is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

An immediate answer. NO. because the financial world would not allow it to happen, they would prop us up until we we were all in the same boat, and then the word bankruptcy would have no meaning. Money is just a way of keeping score. However a great number of Citizens will go bankrupt as a result.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2006
Neal_Van Neal_Van is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

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Originally Posted by cygnus View Post
Well it may be that the US is on a path to bankruptcy but I think its tough to make the case the Euro is going to be the worlds next reserve currency. The EU has been running deficits roughly equivlant to what Bush has been running with the two largest EU economies actually running higher deficits - Germany and UK both running deficits in excess of 3% of GDP. The EU has a larger debt level than the US - 65% of GDP - while the EU is running debt in excess of 70% of GDP. To make matters worse the EU has worse demographic issues, higher unemployment, slower average economic growth rate and much larger entitlement program liabilities. This seems to me to mean the EU will go bankrupt far before the US. We will have to see what happens with China and India in the next 20-30 years - maybe one of them will be up to the task.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/euro/publ...article-154656
While the Eurozone has a equal to or greater dept level it's economic potential is getting better while the US has been faltering. Take for example all the cost cuting going on by corporations in the US. Meanwhile in Eurozone the economy is exceeding expectations and remaining strong. Although a slowdown in the US would also hurt the Eurozone the current slowdown has not had an effect.

As far as China goes growth restrictions for expansion by the government limit it's growth potential. India has mega problems so many it would be an endless topic.
As far as growth potential goes of course growing nations have more growth potential than developed nations.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2006
Neal_Van Neal_Van is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doniston View Post
An immediate answer. NO. because the financial world would not allow it to happen, they would prop us up until we we were all in the same boat, and then the word bankruptcy would have no meaning. Money is just a way of keeping score. However a great number of Citizens will go bankrupt as a result.
Bankrupt no but as far as investors are concerned they will keep institutional money where it can grow or is safest from loss or default.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2006
Marcus1124 Marcus1124 is offline
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Re: Is the US going bankrupt?

Quote:
Neal_Van
While the Eurozone has a equal to or greater dept level it's economic potential is getting better while the US has been faltering. Take for example all the cost cuting going on by corporations in the US. Meanwhile in Eurozone the economy is exceeding expectations and remaining strong. Although a slowdown in the US would also hurt the Eurozone the current slowdown has not had an effect.
I am willing to put up any amount you want betting that over the next ten years US economic growth substantially outpaces Eurozone growth.
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