Visit the U.S. Politics Online Discussion Forum Archives!

Sponsored by:

U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum  

Bookmark Us! E-Mail DONATE NOW! Photo Gallery Document Archives Quiz! Register to Vote!!!
Go Back   U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum > Issue Politics > Economic Issues

Economic Issues Business, Commerce, Consumer Affairs, Economics, Public Finance, Trade

View Poll Results: On what levels, if any, should defense be private?
Local Only 0 0%
Local and State Only 1 2.44%
Local, State and National (All Levels) 5 12.20%
State and National 2 4.88%
National 1 2.44%
None 17 41.46%
None, and anyone who thinks it should be is a crazed lunatic! 15 36.59%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack (2) Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
pramjockey's Avatar
pramjockey pramjockey is online now
OMG!
Scruffy-looking nerf herder

 
Member Since: Feb 2006
Location: Morrison, CO
Posts: 14,163

Scotland     Colorado

Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by liberty1776 View Post
I didn't mean to insult you, I was asking you a question. The sort of people you find taking the position you are taking are usually ignorant. They have the advantage of living blissful lives, but they remain ignorant. Do you disagree with this assessment?
No. I've thought about this issue extensively. I've made up my mind on it. I'm not wandering this world blissfully ignorant. I know where my knowledge limitations are, and I actively try to fill those gaps when I can.
__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
EricOKC's Avatar
EricOKC EricOKC is online now
Vice President
The one your parents warned you about

 
Member Since: Feb 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,620

Texas     United_States

Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikvv View Post
Defense is protecting people i think. Police and army tasks.
Well except that neither of those protect anyone, you're right.

The police are not tasked with protecting anybody.

The military is primarily concerned with killing people and breaking things, thereby protecting the nation in general.
__________________
In case you were wondering, yes, there really ARE more idiots these days....technology has made natural selection obsolete.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
EricOKC's Avatar
EricOKC EricOKC is online now
Vice President
The one your parents warned you about

 
Member Since: Feb 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,620

Texas     United_States

Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by liberty1776 View Post
Why do you think this?
Perhaps because it is explicitly spelled out in the US Constitution as a legitimate power assigned to the federal government.
__________________
In case you were wondering, yes, there really ARE more idiots these days....technology has made natural selection obsolete.
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
underboss's Avatar
underboss underboss is offline
County Executive
Ron Paul Revolutionary

 
Member Since: May 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 375

United_States    
Re: Privitizing Defense

Either way you're screwed - there's no "defense" at all - The Blackwaters will get paid the big bucks from our taxes to oppress us and the military will be "fighting for our freedoms" in some foreign country that never posed a threat to us but has plenty of oil and does not do the bidding of Oilfinger.
__________________
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
~Thomas Jefferson

"There is Still No Such Thing As a Fair Tax"
Reply With Quote
  #50 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
erikvv's Avatar
erikvv erikvv is offline
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands
Posts: 2,457

Netherlands     European_Union

Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Well except that neither of those protect anyone, you're right.
Please explain? I feel protected by the police. If they werent here, robbing killing and raping would be rampant.

And certain places in the world need a militairy force too.
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
liberty1776 liberty1776 is offline
Secretary of Defense
A libertarian first, a Libertarian second

 
Member Since: Mar 2004
Location: Liberty
Posts: 2,518

   
Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricOKC View Post
Perhaps because it is explicitly spelled out in the US Constitution as a legitimate power assigned to the federal government.
Right, but is this a morrally sound argument? The fact that a bunch of guys 200 years ago said that they had the power of defense isn't very compelling moral argument.
__________________
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Non Sequitur's Avatar
Non Sequitur Non Sequitur is offline
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: Saginaw
Posts: 1,064

United_States     Netherlands

Re: Privitizing Defense

put it this way liberty i don't trust anyone who answers to their own profit to protect me, or the nation. I expect them to protect the amount of money they want to make.
__________________
"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
liberty1776 liberty1776 is offline
Secretary of Defense
A libertarian first, a Libertarian second

 
Member Since: Mar 2004
Location: Liberty
Posts: 2,518

   
Re: Privitizing Defense

You obviously did not read what I wrote.
__________________
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Luap's Avatar
Luap Luap is offline
Secretary of Defense
NBA Champs 2008

 
Member Since: May 2006
Location: The world
Posts: 2,297

Earth    
Re: Privitizing Defense

I just have a few practical questions about the theory of private defense agencies. Sorry if you’ve addressed these in detail already, just say so and I’ll look around.

First, I want to ask about the unequal purchasing power held by individuals. A parallel can be drawn to private health care; those with the capital would be able to purchase superior service, while the destitute and poor would be have very little, if any, resources to spend on defense. Large corporations like the financial giants or agribusinesses would have the funds to use their “defense” agencies for more offensive purposes; what in theory would prevent these huge businesses from reestablishing old-style imperialism aimed at opening up markets and destroying competitors? What would stop them from subjugating their labor force besides an equally large defense agency aligned with the workers? War or the constant imminent threat of war would be very profitable for a private military-industrial complex, so what would prevent the encouragement of a worldwide management-labor cold war or hot war?

What would the system of law be like? Would each agency have its own “constitution,” in a way?

Consider the situation of a cartel. In today’s world, many cartels have resorted to government support to maintain themselves. In a world of private PDAs, couldn’t the members of a cartel use these organizations to maintain cartels via force in many or all industries?

And what about a cartel of PDAs—they could easily enforce the organization by ganging up on any agency that dared break the “contract.” There would a continuous arms race due to the competition, and a situation rife with suspicion and tension—not unlike today’s world of public defense agencies administered by governments. They could ensure business and high prices through coordinated attacks on each other’s customers.

These are just some potential problems I see arising, and I'm curious how the theory would solve them.
__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

—John Donne
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
partofme's Avatar
partofme partofme is online now
Moderator

 
Member Since: Apr 2004
Location: Murray Kentucky
Posts: 15,055

Earth     United_States

Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by AjaxPress View Post
I have come to the conclusion that people who participate in non-partisan forums are smarter and more aware than the average person. Non-partisan forum participants are much more intelligent than people who get polled by Rasmussen and other official polling functions.
True but they are not the only ones that vote and are not the only ones that are represented by our elected officials. I also think that people on this site are more polarized and influenced by political philosophies than the average person that relates things more to how policies impact their own lives.
__________________
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Reply With Quote
  #56 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Non Sequitur's Avatar
Non Sequitur Non Sequitur is offline
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: Saginaw
Posts: 1,064

United_States     Netherlands

Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by liberty1776 View Post
You obviously did not read what I wrote.
No I did, but I still don't trust people worth a damn. It's a little to libertarian for my blood. I am not worried about the army shooting it's own citizens i am worried about what happens when there is conflicting interests and our nation ends up on the loosing side. With you private defense companies, what happens in a war. All the enemy would have to do is offer a bigger contract and look, no army to defend the nation. What would keep these private defense companies from doing this considering it is perfectly legal to accept a better contract. If you say it violates a special law, or violates a special contract, what does the government have to enforce this? They would still need an army to enforce the rule on their own private defense companies. Or another scenario what happens when someone (who is rich enough) decides to pay some of these companies better? Now we have to groups, one group of defense companies loyal to rich guy and another group loyal to the government. Civil Wars have been started that way. That is what I mean when I say there is no loyalty. The way the system is now the army is loyal to the national defense and is only concerned with the defense of the nation.
__________________
"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Andrewl's Avatar
Andrewl Andrewl is offline
President

 
Member Since: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,935

   
Re: Privitizing Defense

Geez, not even the intellectual champion of free markets and privatization, Milton Friedman, would have privatized defense/security.

Andrew
__________________
Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #58 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Eisbrecher's Avatar
Eisbrecher Eisbrecher is offline
County Council Member

 
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Germany ;-)
Posts: 262

Germany     Austria

Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewl View Post
Geez, not even the intellectual champion of free markets and privatization, Milton Friedman, would have privatized defense/security.

Andrew
I know and i agree in this point with Milton Friedman, but it`s worth noting, that his son, David Friedman, cames to other conclusioons.
__________________
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else

Claude Frédéric Bastiat
Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
Andrewl's Avatar
Andrewl Andrewl is offline
President

 
Member Since: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,935

   
Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisbrecher View Post
I know and i agree in this point with Milton Friedman, but it`s worth noting, that his son, David Friedman, cames to other conclusioons.
So did Bush Sr's son with respect to Iraq, and it turns out Bush Sr. was right. Also, it turns out that the great experiment of private defense with the iraq war has turned out to be mainly characterized by corruption, not better defense.

I think, in principle, the free market is a good thing. But some things require a state monopoly for the well being of a society.

Andrew
__________________
Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #60 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2007
mpd8488's Avatar
mpd8488 mpd8488 is offline
Speaker of the House

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 994

Virginia     United_States

Re: Privitizing Defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewl View Post
I think, in principle, the free market is a good thing. But some things require a state monopoly for the well being of a society.

Andrew
Of course. Our government is charged only with protecting us and our rights. It is one of the few areas in which should have a total monopoly. If privatized defense was better there would be no need for governments, and I think we can all agree that that is unrealistic.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/economic-issues/39107-privitizing-defense.html
Posted By For Type Date
Privitizing Defense - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum This thread Refback 06-20-2007 06:24 PM
Privitizing Defense - Page 6 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum This thread Refback 06-19-2007 04:07 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:05 PM.