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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2007
Curly Curly is offline
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the rich get richer, and .....

I thought this was interesting.

2005 Incomes, on Average, Still Below 2000 Peak, NY Times, Aug. 21, 2007:

Quote:
Americans earned a smaller average income in 2005 than in 2000, the fifth consecutive year that they had to make ends meet with less money than at the peak of the last economic expansion, new government data shows.

While incomes have been on the rise since 2002, the average income in 2005 was $55,238, still nearly 1 percent less than the $55,714 in 2000, after adjusting for inflation, analysis of new tax statistics show.
Quote:
Total income listed on tax returns grew every year after World War II, with a single one-year exception, until 2001, making the five-year period of lower average incomes and four years of lower total incomes a new experience for the majority of Americans born since 1945.
And the Administration's response?

Quote:
The White House said the fact that average incomes were smaller five years after the Internet bubble burst “should not surprise anyone.”
Cute.
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The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

- Hermann Goering
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2007
liberty1776 liberty1776 is offline
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Re: the rich get richer, and .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
I thought this was interesting.

2005 Incomes, on Average, Still Below 2000 Peak, NY Times, Aug. 21, 2007:



And the Administration's response?


Cute.
Ok, what has caused this?

Is it your claim that is is tax cuts for the rich? If so, why has this caused people to make less money?
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Last edited by liberty1776; 08-21-2007 at 09:54 AM.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2007
Dilettante's Avatar
Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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Re: the rich get richer, and .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
Cute.
Well, they're right about that whole bubble thing aren't they? I mean, I was just going into online software in 2000 and the wages for technology workers were just ridiculously, stupidly excessive. It was great if you were on the right side of things, but you knew it couldn't last. Which was really a shame for some of us...
The wages in 2000 were simply unsustainable, hence the "burst". They were evidence of overly-excited venture capitalists who were doing foolish things with their money, not of the state of the economy more generally.
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Old 08-21-2007
wrxsti wrxsti is offline
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Re: the rich get richer, and .....

What's the problem, the poorer they are, the richer I feel. Good old schadenfreude.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2007
Curly Curly is offline
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Re: the rich get richer, and .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by liberty1776 View Post
Ok, what has caused this?
My initial reaction in reading what the Administration had to say was, that's typical - blame the previous administration.

I find it shocking that for five straight years, the average income went down. All you hear from the current Administration is how great the economy is, and they're right, it's great ... if you're rich.

Hell, I'm doing better, significantly better, than I was doing in 2000. But on average, Americans aren't doing better - they're doing worse. And I guess I'm just old-fashioned enough to be concerned about the other guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liberty1776 View Post
Is it your claim that is is tax cuts for the rich? If so, why has this caused people to make less money?
Well, when you look at the growing disparity between the "haves" and "have nots", absolutely the tax cuts for the rich was a major contributing factor. As the article says:

Quote:
The growth in total incomes was concentrated among those making more than $1 million. The number of such taxpayers grew by more than 26 percent, to 303,817 in 2005, from 239,685 in 2000.

These individuals, who constitute less than a quarter of 1 percent of all taxpayers, reaped almost 47 percent of the total income gains in 2005, compared with 2000.

People with incomes of more than a million dollars also received 62 percent of the savings from the reduced tax rates on long-term capital gains and dividends that President Bush signed into law in 2003, according to a separate analysis by Citizens for Tax Justice, a group that points out policies that it says favor the rich.
But it's not just the tax cuts for the rich. Ordinary people - the shrinking middle class - are getting squeezed by stagnant wages, increased energy costs, increased health care costs, and fewer good paying jobs. Companies have reduced benefits - retirement, health, etc. - and have shipped jobs overseas.

The American Dream is alive and well for those who already have money. But for ordinary people? For those who are willing to work hard - even for those who are already working hard - the American Dream is more difficult to achieve now that it was in 2000 ... and 2001 ... and 2002 ... and 2003 ..... That ain't progress.
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The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

- Hermann Goering
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2007
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Donkey_Left Donkey_Left is offline
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Re: the rich get richer, and .....

Whatever the cause, this could be problematic. Not immidiately, perhaps, but the destruction of the middle class is a great concern. It could destroy what democracy we have, and from observation, countries without a functioning middle class are inherently more violent...
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Old 08-21-2007
liberty1776 liberty1776 is offline
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Re: the rich get richer, and .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
My initial reaction in reading what the Administration had to say was, that's typical - blame the previous administration.

I find it shocking that for five straight years, the average income went down. All you hear from the current Administration is how great the economy is, and they're right, it's great ... if you're rich.

Hell, I'm doing better, significantly better, than I was doing in 2000. But on average, Americans aren't doing better - they're doing worse. And I guess I'm just old-fashioned enough to be concerned about the other guy.


Well, when you look at the growing disparity between the "haves" and "have nots", absolutely the tax cuts for the rich was a major contributing factor. As the article says:


But it's not just the tax cuts for the rich. Ordinary people - the shrinking middle class - are getting squeezed by stagnant wages, increased energy costs, increased health care costs, and fewer good paying jobs. Companies have reduced benefits - retirement, health, etc. - and have shipped jobs overseas.

The American Dream is alive and well for those who already have money. But for ordinary people? For those who are willing to work hard - even for those who are already working hard - the American Dream is more difficult to achieve now that it was in 2000 ... and 2001 ... and 2002 ... and 2003 ..... That ain't progress.
Yes, but how does allowing rich people to keep more money take money from the poor (or middle class_ people?
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Old 11-27-2007
skeptic1 skeptic1 is offline
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Re: the rich get richer, and .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by liberty1776 View Post
Yes, but how does allowing rich people to keep more money take money from the poor (or middle class_ people?
Assuming there is an initial calculation of how much tax moey is needed and the tax table "Buckets" adjusted accordingly and used for instance last year, If one adjustes the "top bucket" to take less tax the lower buckets will have to be raised (one way or another) to make up the difference. Or we simply run a deficit and sell the paper to the Chinese
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Old 11-27-2007
lostinacause lostinacause is offline
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Re: the rich get richer, and .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
Cute.
What is wrong with this. If the claim is that people are getting poorer it is intellectually dishonest to look at what is perhaps the highest period in recent years. If you compare a boom to a bust you would expect people to be doing much better even if their incomes were trending at a constant level. If you want to claim that the rich are receiving most of the gains from growth then you would be in a decent position to make such a claim, however the implications of such a claim are not as strong.
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