......illegal aliens are here doing jobs that Americans will not do.

The bank next to me built a new drive thru and an addition to the main building. The street I live on has had water utility work and is being overlayed with a fresh asphalt top. This work is being done by wetbacks, so tell me........ since when won't Americans do carpentry, masonry, wiring, roofing, operate heavy equipment, etc?

I know what the liberal answer (lie) to this question is, but the truth is that since there are no substantial penalties for those that hire wets, the contracts will always go to the low bidder, and damned if Mr. Low Bidder isn't running crews of illegals with no worries of matching SS & medicare, workmans comp, OSHA, state unemployments, etc.

So when lying liberals start crying about what Bush has done to the economy, check the voting records of your liberal elected officials. Have they done anything to discourage the employment of illegals? Why fuck no, they'll tell you that they are actually helping our economy and we can't do without them.

These dirtbag employers should face outrageously heavy fines the first time, and lose their business license if they get caught again. Three strike should get them time.

If you think for one minute that illegals don't cost Americans their jobs, I have some nice Arizona oceanfront you might want to buy.

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Chances are he IS paying all those things as it HAS become more difficult to pay under the table. The illegals pay like $50 for papers and they're good to go. Congress is loth to get much stricter as they like that income that won't turn into outgo and (they think) allows them to put off the coming SS and Medicare problems.

And if you ask the employers, they'll tell you that they prefer them as they are more reliable and generally harder workers.

I think the issue is that if the pay is not enough to attract citizens to a job... it is not really a economically viable thing. For example. I would like to pay 2 cents for someone to come and clean my bathroom each week, yet that is not really a job. For it to be a job, i would have to raise the pay to the point that someone wants to do it. The issue with immigrants taking "jobs" that citizens won't due... actually points to a secret. These are not really jobs, and the people should consider ending their non-economically viable desire. These may be te same people that would wish for slavery to come back, so they could get people to do other things that are not economically viable.

The real fix is for these jobs to be raised to a pay rate that citizens will take them, or the non-economically viable ideas these people have should simply go away.

It is an indication that their "business" ideas are not actually business ideas. Since they are offering pay rates that they are saying people don't find of marginal value to accept.

These people should simply close up shop, or we should look on a national level to see if these are industries that need government subsidies to remain. If the nation as a whole says we need these things done but they are not economically viable, the government programs can step in and help adjust the situation away from a free market activity to one that is in the national interest, and therefore deserves government help. That is after all, one role of government, to help facilitate some things that the free market cannot facilitate, yet the nation has determined it needs.

Cheers! Ricco

Chas, I agree with you. IMO, illegals, especially the ones who work here illegally as well are a scourge on this country. But I'd just be a lot happier if you used the words "some" and "many" a little more often. I know both liberals and conservatives who are on both sides of this argument. In fact, there are a number of conservatives I personally know who think illegals ARE good for our economy.

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Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

They have if they ARE liberal elected officials.

Please do not confuse the two totally distinct words "liberal" and "Democrat." One of the biggest problems we face today is that, on economic issues such as this one, the Democrats have become every bit as conservative as the Republicans.

If, however, you are prepared to endorse a government that does not pander to Big Bidness on this issue, I believe it is a start.

Incidentally, the argument that these are "jobs Americans won't do" is a conservative one. The argument that they are jobs Americans won't do for slave wages with no benefits, however, is a liberal one. It's also true, which is why our corporate-beholden government won't do anything about it. See, these guys don't want to pay non-slave wages or benefits. And as long as the government is willing to look the other way and enable the racket, why should they comply with the law?

Not a bad notion. We'll make a liberal of you yet.

The thesis, that foreign workers steal the jobs of others hasen`t much statistical support, and maybe one should also give some arguments against the thesis.

1. Immigrants also create jobs as employers. Sure, they often a lack of education and capital, but they bring with them the readiness to assume risks. What could be a better proove for this entrepeneural spirit that the readiness to leave the home land and seek a better future in a foreign country?

2. Even poor skilled workers can be a benefit for the economy: First one should remember, that they also suppoert other sectors, through two ways: First: They spend some part of their money for domestic products. Second: The consumers have a surplus, which also leads to the creation of new jobs.

It`s a wrong assumtion to think that there is only a fixed pool of jobs.

3. One should even remember, that the upward mobility pushes the immigrants ans their children up the social ladder. In the long run, there differences between domestic people and people with immigrant background. In this view, the immigrants only follow the footsteps of your ancestors.


Sure, one could be concerned of low wages and i agree, that there is also a government solution. But i assume it`s a better to rise workers productivity through better education, than to interfere in the free marked.

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Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else

Claude Frédéric Bastiat

What jobs and businesses are you talking about? Home construction? Gardening? Busting tables? Cleaning homes? How are any of the jobs illegals are accused of stealing not actually business ideas? The problem is what the average American considers standard of living, what the average American thinks they deserve. I hate illegal immigration, but at the same time illegals brings a little common sense into the economy... what wages should be and what Americans think they should be are two completely different things.

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There is no secret ingredient.

The entire argument about illegals doing jobs Americans won't do is a distraction from the real problem. Illegal immigrants have broken the laws just being hee. Why are our politicians so eager to turn a blind eye to that fact? There is a system in which immigrants can come here. The fact that so many have chosen to skirt that system doesn't change the fact that they are not supposed to be here.

They are affecting the wages because they are willing to perform work for far less than Americans will do the same. It's artificially lowering the floor. Thus, free competition is being thwarted. I agree the solution should be heavy consequences for employers who hire these illegal immigrants. As well as deportation of the immigrants.

It's a ridiculous statement that we can't deport 12 million illegals. (Or 20 million, who really knows how many.) Sure, we can. One at a time. Find them, process them through the courts and send them back to where ever they came from. Secure the borders and make them come here legally.

Why wouldn't this work, as an amnesty idea... We'll grant illegals amnesty from prosecution if they come forward within a set time period. Say, 12 months. We'll provide transportation back home, where you can get in line and come here the right way. After that time period, we are going to begin an aggressive round up of all illegals, including severe penalties for employers and landlords who provide housing. All illegals who are caught after the amnesty date will be documented and will not be allowed, ever, to immigrate to this country legally. If they come here again illegally, minimum 5 years in one of our federal prisons. Give them some incentive to come forward and real consequence for not coming forward.

Our economy would see the benefits immediately of removing these 12 - 25 million illegals. We already have very low unemployment. We could start demanding those who are capable to work, but are unwilling to do so, go get a job. Wages would rise to the true market value.

I highly disagree that gov't should subsidize any private business. If the business idea can't sustain itself, it isn't a good idea, or, it hasn't been properly implemented and managed. The best answer to determine which functions should be gov't and which should be private is to return to local control. A municipality has a much better understanding of cost benefits to contracting a function compared to completing hat function with public funding. Road maintenance, for example. It can be a huge cost savings for some municipalities to contract road maintenance to a private contractor over having the manpower and equipment to complete it as a municipal function. Smaller gov't leads to more common sense and reasonable spending. Same idea applies for welfare for those in need. If it's distributed by small, local gov't, as in town or city gov't, there is far less room for fraud. But, I'm getting off topic. Although, it would prove nearly impossible for an illegal to gain any welfare benefits from a small, town council type of gov't. It's difficult to hide among the masses in a room of 40 people who all know each other.

I beg to differ.

If you want the job done........in a more haphazard manner......then hire one of these crews that charges half of what the locals charge. If you go behind them yes the job is done fast but the job is very flimsy. They throw it together and later after a while you discover a bunch of flaws in their workmanship. But you still have to pay them.

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"We can't screw it up any worse than they have." - Barack Obama

Wanna bet?



"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste...." - Rahm Emmanuel

This is so true. After Katrina, my neighbor hired a contractor to replace his roof but failed to ask who would be doing the work. Needless to say, after a crew of what he later found out was illegals finished the job, he had to hire someone else to come and repair the leaks after the first rain. I was very careful when selecting my roofers and haven't had any problems at all, but then again, they were a crew of three American guys and one American woman from Ohio.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

There's two separate issues here;

1) Enforcement of labor standards. An employer is required to pay all of those fees and taxes for all workers; legal or not. There are two mechanisms in place to enforce them - private lawsuits and government inspection. The labor bureaus/IRS/etc intended to enforce compliance with labor laws and taxes can do so even if immigration enforcement is non-existent.

I would tend to blame Republicans more for lax labor enforcement and for reforms to make labor lawsuits more difficult.

2) More people increases the labor supply, which obviously reduces salaries. This is real and fair point, and extends from illegal immigration to H1B visas. Neither party has demonstrated a real interest in cutting back on the labor supply - only minorities within them.

BS...........labor enforcement is local. It's up to each state and municipality to enforce their own laws.

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"We can't screw it up any worse than they have." - Barack Obama

Wanna bet?



"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste...." - Rahm Emmanuel

I can understand penalties for employers. I disagree with penalties for landlords. My argument goes as follows. First, if there weren't jobs, housing's a non-issue - money-less people can't rent. Second, although we require documentation for jobs already, we do not require documentation for renting. Penalties on landlords would mean imposing a documentation requirement and expanding the government presence on all rental transactions.

To be nit-picky, there is a federal Department of Labor, federal labor laws, and a body of federal court judgements that affect labor relations and labor enforcement.

But more succinctly, the distinction you make is irrelevant. I agree a significant portion of labor enforcement is local. I'm not sure how that's relevant. Interactions between Republicans/Democrats, liberal/conservatives in the government plays out at the state and local levels as well as the Federal level.

This is quite a peculiar situation... I don't actually understand how anyone can justify illegal immigration. I can completely understand why these people come to the US to work and earn better wages - I do not blame them or consider them to somehow be lesser people. But at the end of the day: They broke the law.

How can anyone defend someone who has done that? The fact is, is that anyone supporting or tolerating illegal immigration is themselves committing a crime. I'm very pro-immigration and I think that if capital has unlimited freedom of movement, so should labour. Yet this should take place legally. These people should pay taxes, face the same rules as anyone else and engage with society. They should not be able to enter illegally and live in the shadows. It retards the benefits both the host society and the immigrants themselves could reap from immigration.

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"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men, will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."

- John Maynard Keynes