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Old 07-18-2008
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Pittsburgh Steelers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

well, the Steelers are one of if not the last franchises in family hands and has done very well over the years. But, of course all that glitters is not gold when the family start dieing off and you're faced with a huge tax bill.
Luckily for the Steeler fans and Pennsylvania, Heinz field is only 7 years old, but with a pass of ownership, if it occurs the new ownership can ask for a new lease and or a re-work of the old one etc. All inner stadium franchise contracts become re-negotiable under the a change of ownership etc.


The Steelers moving isn’t a problem so much as the change in ownership from a family whom have an abiding interest in the integrity of the game and winning first and foremost to those that may not have the same outlook and the loss of homegrown hometown tradition.

Changes of ownership can be sticky and driven by capital avarice more so than the pursuit of putting a wining team on the filed. I hope that doesn’t happen.
There are franchises whom after a change become more concerned with the bottom line than pursing talent and attempting to turn over every stone to create a winner....




Pittsburgh Stealers
July 16, 2008; Page A16
The citizens of Pittsburgh are getting an unpleasant lesson in the consequences of punitive taxation, courtesy of their beloved NFL franchise. Inside the Pittsburgh Steeler boardroom, a fraternal squabble is under way over future ownership—thanks in part to a sacking from the realities of estate and capital gains taxes.

One of the league's iconic teams, the Steelers have been owned by the Rooney family since 1933. The five sons of the original owner, Art Rooney, control 80%—and they are getting into their 70s. With the team's value estimated at $700 million or more, the 45% federal death tax rate could put each brother on the hook to the IRS for tens of millions of dollars.

That may be more than they can afford. NFL franchises have appreciated quickly in the past decade, and the more a franchise goes up in value, the greater the challenge for estate planning. While a given brother's share of the team may be worth more than $100 million on paper, that doesn't mean he or his heirs have half again that much in cash to fork over to the IRS.

Daniel Rooney, the eldest brother who runs the team, is offering to buy his four brothers out of their shares. He has said he will do "everything possible to ensure my father's legacy" and keep the team in family hands, and in Pittsburgh. Good luck to him. Challenging Mr. Rooney's offer to buy about a third of each of his brothers' stakes now with more down the road is hedge-fund billionaire Stanley Druckenmiller, a man with considerably deeper pockets.

Adding urgency to the Pittsburgh transaction is the prospect of a Democratic President in 2009 who opposes repeal of the death tax and wants to raise the tax rate for capital gains. Barack Obama has promised to raise the rate from 15% to at least 25%, and perhaps the Clinton-era peak of 28%. The artificial timeline adds appeal to a buyer like Mr. Druckenmiller who has the dough to complete a transaction before the end of this year.

As for the death tax, it is now on track to expire for one year, in 2010, and then revert to its pre-2003 terms with a rate of 55% and an exclusion of only $1 million. The current exclusion is $2 million, far below a level that would help the Rooneys or tens of thousands of small business owners who have built something of value over a lifetime and might like to pass it along to their heirs. Mr. Obama proposes a meager $3.5 million exclusion with a top rate of 45%.

The role of taxes in separating families from their businesses doesn't seem to bother many in Washington—where politicians are usually happy to sound off on lesser injustices. The bid for family-run Anheuser-Busch from European brewer InBev brought a storm of political indignation, though the Busch family owns a less-than 4% stake and the AB board has since agreed to a takeover.

Of course, the estate tax is also what has forced the sale of so many family-owned local newspapers to the "media giants" that liberals who love the estate tax now deplore. Those rare papers that are still family owned know the death tax is a threat to their longevity. Seattle Times owner Frank Blethen has made the issue a personal crusade as his paper competes with the Hearst-owned Post-Intelligencer (which unsurprisingly favors the estate tax in editorials).

When taxes force a family to sell a business, the losers are often the community as much as the next generation, as teams leave and neighborhood fixtures fade away. Mr. Obama is planning to accept his nomination for President in the football stadium of the Denver Broncos in August. The irony will be noted in Pittsburgh, which may lose the Steelers thanks to a tax regime that forces thousands of American families to sell their businesses.

Pittsburgh Stealers - WSJ.com
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Damn - as a 25 year Steelers fan - this is not welcome news..as a matter of fact every sports fan should be upset, sports has became so commercialized I am FULLY expecting that in the near future teams will represent corporations than states...perhaps the "Hershey Steelers" is just around the corner.

As for estate/death taxes - in my opinion it is a crime, pure and simple - the money is clearly double taxed at that point.
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Old 07-18-2008
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem View Post
Damn - as a 25 year Steelers fan - this is not welcome news..as a matter of fact every sports fan should be upset, sports has became so commercialized I am FULLY expecting that in the near future teams will represent corporations than states...perhaps the "Hershey Steelers" is just around the corner.

As for estate/death taxes - in my opinion it is a crime, pure and simple - the money is clearly double taxed at that point.
How is it double taxed?
He bought the team for what? $25,000 in 1933, and now it's worth 700 million.
No one has paid any tax on that capital appreciation.
If they sold the team they would have realized about a 700 million dollar profit.
Why shouldn't they have to pay a tax on transferring ownership?
Anyone else would have.

So now you feel sorry for the poor family who owns a football team?
If they die now the rate is only 35%.
You do know there was a proposal to exclude the first 100 million dollars from the tax, it went down in a straight party line vote, every Republican voted against it.
All they have to do is die in 2010, and they avoid the federal estate tax, if they live past midnight Dec 31, 2010, they go back to the 50%

But then again if you feel that this is unfair and that the middle class should pay more so that these poor team owners can pay less, you are certainly entitled to that opinion.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
How is it double taxed?
He bought the team for what? $25,000 in 1933, and now it's worth 700 million.
No one has paid any tax on that capital appreciation.
If they sold the team they would have realized about a 700 million dollar profit.
Why shouldn't they have to pay a tax on transferring ownership?
Anyone else would have.

So now you feel sorry for the poor family who owns a football team?
If they die now the rate is only 35%.
You do know there was a proposal to exclude the first 100 million dollars from the tax, it went down in a straight party line vote, every Republican voted against it.
All they have to do is die in 2010, and they avoid the federal estate tax, if they live past midnight Dec 31, 2010, they go back to the 50%

But then again if you feel that this is unfair and that the middle class should pay more so that these poor team owners can pay less, you are certainly entitled to that opinion.
?
They have paid corporate taxes on every dime the company made, and considering this was some years ago - they paid tax again on that same revenue when they paid themselves...now the presumed worth is taxed yet again.

So your right - it is actually triple-taxed.
I am not a tax lawyer...but I run a business, the sheer amounts of taxes paid on company revenue is astounding.
Corporate taxes
Payroll taxes
Inventory taxes
Property taxes.......and there are others.

That $700 million has been taxed to death (well not yet)
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Old 07-18-2008
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem View Post
?
They have paid corporate taxes on every dime the company made, and considering this was some years ago - they paid tax again on that same revenue when they paid themselves...now the presumed worth is taxed yet again.

So your right - it is actually triple-taxed.
I am not a tax lawyer...but I run a business, the sheer amounts of taxes paid on company revenue is astounding.
Corporate taxes
Payroll taxes
Inventory taxes
Property taxes.......and there are others.

That $700 million has been taxed to death (well not yet)
OK so lets say we don't tax it, who should pay then, because someone has to pay the tax, because the government needs the money.
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“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address
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Old 07-18-2008
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Pays too much in taxes

 
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
OK so lets say we don't tax it, who should pay then, because someone has to pay the tax, because the government needs the money.
nooo - the government needs to stop wasting money.
the government is one GIANT money pit goob...no matter how much money it takes in it will spend more than that amount....there is absolutely no fiscal responsibility in modern government (in this government)
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Old 07-18-2008
chrisl chrisl is offline
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem View Post
?
They have paid corporate taxes on every dime the company made
Taxes on past income are irrelevant. If I buy a company/stock/investment, I'm not buying a share in past income, I'm buying into the future income.
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Old 07-18-2008
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

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Originally Posted by chrisl View Post
Taxes on past income are irrelevant. If I buy a company/stock/investment, I'm not buying a share in past income, I'm buying into the future income.
The government should not tax what has not been made.
If they did - then it would be quadruple-taxed
Tax what it is supposed to be - then tax it when it actually happens?...I don't think so.
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Old 07-18-2008
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem View Post
?
They have paid corporate taxes on every dime the company made, and considering this was some years ago - they paid tax again on that same revenue when they paid themselves...now the presumed worth is taxed yet again.

So your right - it is actually triple-taxed.
I am not a tax lawyer...but I run a business, the sheer amounts of taxes paid on company revenue is astounding.
Corporate taxes
Payroll taxes
Inventory taxes
Property taxes.......and there are others.

That $700 million has been taxed to death (well not yet)
hey you forgot equipment depreciation tax ....in California its astounding, a 15 million dollar tool we have replaced yields less than a 200k write off.....unreal…......
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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2008
chrisl chrisl is offline
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem View Post
The government should not tax what has not been made.
If they did - then it would be quadruple-taxed
Tax what it is supposed to be - then tax it when it actually happens?...I don't think so.
They haven't taxed what hasn't been made. They've taxed the value the free market assigned to an object at the time the object traded hands. The free market is equally capable of valuing future income or a car - why should the tax system dsicriminate?
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Old 07-18-2008
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iamwhatiseem iamwhatiseem is offline
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Pays too much in taxes

 
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisl View Post
They haven't taxed what hasn't been made. They've taxed the value the free market assigned to an object at the time the object traded hands. The free market is equally capable of valuing future income or a car -
Exactly - that is taxing something that hasn't happened yet.

If I inherit a home worth $250k - I will pay (I believe I am correct in IN) I would have to pay $18,750....
Now let's pretend I don't have that money - I would then have to immediately sell the property before the IRS gets ansy.
Now I owe income tax as well unless within 30 days I purchase separate real estate.

This happens all the time, the guy who bought a rental off of me did just that.
It is called a "1031 exchange" - he inherited a house - had to sell the house, then within 30 days buy ANOTHER house to avoid paying a total of 57% tax.

Real fair eh?
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Old 07-18-2008
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
OK so lets say we don't tax it, who should pay then, because someone has to pay the tax, because the government needs the money.


no. it doesn't. it wants the money to buy votes.


the death tax is obscene. no wonder BHO loves it so.
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Old 07-19-2008
chrisl chrisl is offline
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem View Post
Exactly - that is taxing something that hasn't happened yet.

If I inherit a home worth $250k - I will pay (I believe I am correct in IN) I would have to pay $18,750....
Now let's pretend I don't have that money - I would then have to immediately sell the property before the IRS gets ansy.
Now I owe income tax as well unless within 30 days I purchase separate real estate.

This happens all the time, the guy who bought a rental off of me did just that.
It is called a "1031 exchange" - he inherited a house - had to sell the house, then within 30 days buy ANOTHER house to avoid paying a total of 57% tax.

Real fair eh?
True, fair would be charging a straight 57% which would eliminate such rigamaroles.
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Old 07-19-2008
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Pays too much in taxes

 
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisl View Post
True, fair would be charging a straight 57% which would eliminate such rigamaroles.
Because 57% tax rate is OBSCENE for a middle class family.

Our government is without question the most wasteful organization in the world...the U.N. (which we finance) is probably a distant 2nd.
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Old 07-19-2008
chrisl chrisl is offline
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Re: Pittsburgh Stealers- will death tax sack the Steelers?

Why obscene? It's a pure profit for no work. What kind of adult is dependent on his parent's wealth, rather than working for his own success?
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