People don't just "benefit" more. They usually benefit due to their own hard work, or through the hard work of the charitable. If you want to point fingers at those who benefit the most "from this country" (the government), then those are the people on welfare.

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If a neocon whines about big government wealth redistribution, just ask him what he thinks about the portion of that big government that sends aid to Israel.

Nope. People on welfare do not live more comfortable than the super rich. Nice mythology though. We are interested in reality here.

Usually to qualify for welfare you have to prove you are poor.

For your first point, yes, there are people who do in fact benefit more, regardless of how they reached that state. If someone works hard and earns a bunch of money, HE HAS NOT DONE IT ALONE. First, any businessman has a number of employees whom he pays an amount of money that he would not be satisfied with (ironic). Then, he would not be able to safely operate a business without law enforcement and government providing him a safe environment to pursue his interests.
Therefore, since he has been able to get more out of the system, he ought to give more to the system, and that is how it works my friend.

Nobody has the power to create wealth completely on their own. It takes a system where others are doing their part for him to benefit. Others have to assume a less beneficial role (less income) in order for him to make his larger amount. Plain and simple.

In a world of only factory owners, there would be no profits. No one would do the work. Simple analogy, but still applies to our post industrious society here.

You are a socialist. you just don't realize it and have been taught some clever rewordings of it.

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Anyone with a vision needs to see an eye doctor. -Helmut Schmidt.

"Mrs. Palin, which specific journals and news sources do you read? (after being asked once)"

"Oh, All of them!"

I never said they lived more comfortably. Nice strawman, though. What I said was that they received more benefits from the government. That is, they get welfare, the "super rich" usually don't.Well, I am. I don't know about you, though. You're more interested in the strawman industry.Which is usually easier for the super poor rather than the super rich.Irrelevant. He paid them and they sold their services to him. He owes them nothing besides what was in the contract.Why? Does he get special police protection unavailable to his employees?And "their part" has already been paid for, at least in the case of the employees. As for law enforcement, he is treated just as the employees are, so why should he pay more? No they don't. Nobody held a gun to their heads. They agreed to do what they do for what the employer offered. It's that simple.How am I a socialist?

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If a neocon whines about big government wealth redistribution, just ask him what he thinks about the portion of that big government that sends aid to Israel.

Stressing about home loan payments?

Do you guys have really dumb surgeons in your country? Surgeons dont have trouble paying for anything in my country, or in Germany or France. Their extremely well rewarded.

We dont dehumanise anyone, all are as human as each other.

Next youll be telling us about the educated property tycoon who has a harder life struggle than the single mother with 3 kids working in Walmart.

You've completely missed the point. And, to state the obvious, surgeons are paid well in the USA.

But, that's irrelevant. What is relevant is that increasing the taxes to those with high incomes necessarily will reduce the rates at which they will donate to NGOs and other non-profits and charities.

And, those who depend on the non-profits lose out. In the big picture, it is not the rich who pay the biggest price.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Id like to know who this "working class" is that everyone keeps talking about.

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http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

Not at all. The Fair Tax effectively exempts all spending to the level of poverty. Furthermore the effective tax rate we currently pay is more than 30%. Also, with a sales tax, you can pay 30% or 0%, depending on what you buy. But basically, if you look at the extensive economic research that been done, the Fair Tax is a benefit to everyone, and a boon to the economy.

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http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

I agree, so lets raise taxes on the poor and the middle class. They get far more for their tax dollars (or lack of) than do the rich. For example, most of our budget goes to medicare, medicaid, schip, and other entitlements. The middle class and poor overwhelmingly use those benefits. The rich pay for those same services out of private income AFTER paying taxes.

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http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

Two partners own the company I work for.

Each of them is rich. Filthy fucking rich.

Their jobs, now, are pretty easy. The company operates in the black while they takes their month-long vacations, or when one of them goes to Europe to order his next Ferrari while the other is driving one of his three Hum-Vees through the Sahara.

Make no mistake, though: They worked their asses off to get to where they are now. They used to pay themselves a whopping $15.00 a week.

One of the owners was on a local morning radio show called "Ask The Rich Guy". One of the questions they asked:

You're at the San Diego Boat Show. You walk past all of the boats inside the Convention Center, and go look at the real boats in the bay out back. A yacht catches your eye. The price is four million dollars. Our question on "Ask The Rich guy" is this: Do you finance, or do you write a check?"

His reply: "I write a check".

I think it's stupid to assume that someone who's rich has always been that way. Of the "rich" people I know, only one got that way without working for it (his parents gave him $1,000,000.00 when he turned 21)...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Do these partners make any decisions or have any responsibilities? Simply because owners and ceos arent cleaning the floors doesnt mean their work isnt as important as the janitor, in most cases, more so. CEOs can not easily be replaced. Janitors can. There are definetly a bunch of bad CEOs, who run companies into the ground and then retire. Those are the ones who make the headlines. The hundreds of thousands more who build their companies and then retire never get any notice.

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http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

Simply pointing out the fantasy of highly paid professional stressing about their finances. Not to say it couldnt happen, but theyd need to go far to spend themselves in to a problem.

Re classes, work rates and skills. The better off are better off because they have occupied niche or bottlenecks areas of the economy or entered professions with a high entry standard. These efforts require hard work, brains and a bit of luck. For this hard work and the brains to occupy these areas they are renumerated extra.

Other people prove not able to occupy these areas, a relative few dont work hard, most work hard but do not have the brains or the luck (luck is by definition a rare chance, or wouldnt be luck). If they did all have the brains the standard would simply be raised and thus the bottlenecks and niches would remain. Thus even if all worked equally hard and had equal brains it would not be possible for all of them to occupy the niche or bottleneck areas of the economy.

Do we praise the technicians, the tycoons, the surgeons for their work and efforts? Of course, and we reward them too. But should we thus go even further and say they are better workers and reward them even more? To our own detriment?

I say they have their reward, they have their enjoyments, let that be enough for them. No need to give them more.

This is like comparing apples to oranges.



Cry me a river for all the times I hear about how stressful it is to be rich. There's a fuck-load of difference between a single mother stressing about the foreclosure on her home, than the wealthy soccer mom stressing about how she'll be able to get little Sally to soccer practice because the Range Rover is in service, and her hair appointment is running late.

There's a really big difference between rich stress and poor stress, and that is that rich stress is primarily voluntary, where as poor stress is often beyond their control, and often due to circumstances that will alter their way of life dramatically.

I also think that the drop off in hours of the bottom 5th--which is a pretty small sampling of blue collar workers--can also be partly linked to outsourcing.

If you tell me Mark (worth $176 million) works an average of 56 hours/week, and Greg (a roofer, worth $32 thousand) works an average of 48 hours/week, I will say Greg works harder every single hour he's working.

Longer hours are not a very good indicator of hard work at all. I've worked late, and have seen co-workers totally spinning in circles, not getting anything done. For what I do, after 12-hours my eyes start to glaze over, and my error rate increases above my acceptable limit.

But for all the self-made millionaires there are enough who were handed the keys to their castle; i.e.: George W. Bush.

I really don't know the purpose of this article, it's hardly news to anyone, we have movies and television shows depicting a wide spectrum of the rich; and I don't know anyone who thought the "rich" just sit around all day lying on a pile of money drinking martinis.

So, what's the fucking point?

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Big Number of 2008
8,217,246
Obama's Margin of Victory

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson

I see great relevance to this thread. There is undoubtedly a systematic demonizing of ‘the rich’ taking place in this country led by economic socialists. Socialism, a system that has failed in every place it has ever been tried, is being packaged and sold to the American people on a daily basis. An endless discussion about what is ‘fair’ only proves the success of left-wing propaganda. Fair? Did your mother ever tell you that life would be fair? Our constitution only guarantees equal opportunity, not equal results. Just reading the last three pages of posts have affirmed the lack of economic education around this country.

From the arguments about ‘how hard’ rich people work, to how many are first generation rich, to what the definition of work is . . very irrelevant. Business owners risk more, and then get paid in accordance to the risk taken, regardless of the amount of work they do. The more they work, the better chance of success they have. But if the company goes bankrupt, the laborer collects unemployment until finding another job. The company owner can lose his/her business, capital, home, vehicles, etc, etc.

By the way, 80% of all millionaires are first generation millionaires.

The next obvious mistake is talking about ‘the rich’ without specifics. This is another trick perfected by the lefties. Polls and focus groups have proven over and over that the highest percentage of Americans associate ‘the rich’ with ‘millionaires’. Knowing the numbers is important here, which most people do not:

Top 1% - $388K+, Top 5% - $153K, Top 10% - $109K, Top 25% - $65K, Top 50% - $32K

So a couple making $80K each are part of what Obama has defined as ‘the rich’, or the top 5%, and you are walking around with a bull’s-eye on your wallet. No, raising taxes will not hurt the multi-millionaires, but what about a family of 5 paying off two college loans amongst all the other expenses with $160K per year. Is it ‘fair’ to hit them hard?

This is why a tiered tax system is extremely dangerous. The ‘mob rules’ mentality will eventually create a majority of people demanding the minority pay everything for. We are almost there now. Here is who funds what percentage of the total federal budget:

Top 1% - 39.9%, Top 5% - 60.1%, Top 10% - 70.8%, Top 25% - 86.2%, Top 50% - 97.1%, Bottom 50% - 2.9%
Most alarming of all: 32.6% of all tax returns are ‘negative returns’ (The ‘return check’ was for more than that family paid in income tax that year)

One-third of Americans MAKE money on income taxes. Now, for all of you people out there saying we need to cut taxes for the middle and working class, who do you refer to? For the bottom 1/3 of income earners, we cannot possible ‘cut’ their income tax. All we can do is lower their profit.

By the way, it is obvious from these numbers how the Democrats can claim every tax cut is ‘for the rich’. After all, you cannot cut taxes on the poor and ‘working’ Americans, because they do not pay any. The anti-rich propaganda machine not only hides these numbers, but also has convinced many American’s that the lower half is paying all the taxes.

And all this talk about ‘fair’ . . . let me put this into perspective for you. Do you want an example of what is truly fair? Take the U.S. federal budget ($3 trillion) and divide by the number of adults in the U.S. (250 million). Every American adult would then pay $12,000 (total) per year federal taxes. That would be fair. I am more that willing to negotiate favors for the poor, but lets be honest, and start at $12K per year as ‘fair’.

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The (almost)Great SupPackFan Quotes:
"The more times you drive over a cat - the flatter it gets!"
"Differentiating legal and illegal immigration is as critical as separating child adoption from child abduction."

I did not say let those who receive more tax dollars pay more taxes. The reason they receive support is because they are poor.

I said those who benefit more from the system ought to pay more for the system. By system i am referring to the entire country, not just government services. The system extends past government, remember, this is a quasi free market where everything does not stop and start with the government.

The 'system' is capitalism. Everyone in the country HAS NO CHOICE but to accept that. However, everyone does not benefit from the system as equally. Therefore, those who benefit more pay more.

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Anyone with a vision needs to see an eye doctor. -Helmut Schmidt.

"Mrs. Palin, which specific journals and news sources do you read? (after being asked once)"

"Oh, All of them!"

my argument was that the rich benefit more, and i meant by this that they live more comfortably. You assumed something else without asking for clarification. That is strawman just as well.
The larger interests of quasi-free market capitalism receive a great deal of protection from the government, and a higher proportion of interest and support than his employess.
He benefits more from the stability that the state provides than do his workers. Write me a comparison paper on police and state protection in business districts and rich neighborhoods versus the crime ridden streets of many cities. Protecting larger business interests is often a higher priority of the state than protecting every individual.

You live in a quasi socialist state.

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Anyone with a vision needs to see an eye doctor. -Helmut Schmidt.

"Mrs. Palin, which specific journals and news sources do you read? (after being asked once)"

"Oh, All of them!"