Yet somehow we continue to produce more cars every year.

The basic minerals (fossil fuels included) that fuel all industrial economic growth are limited. Creativity and ingenuity are irrelevant to this. (Efficiency in their production and use actually increase andcreate demand and consumption on the whole). Even if they are abundant, we still have a limit to how much can be produced on a daily, monthly, yearly rate. There are only so many engineers, workers, there is only so much tolerance a people have for the destruction the use and development of these resources cause. In a perfect world of total cooperation, space travel, and the flourishing of human talents we could certainly stretch this out. But that is not the way the world is.

Examples of pet rocks and pretty VW bugs are the extreme exception. Pet rocks and VW bugs are not driving the economic growth of china, russia, and india. Raw resources are.

Amazon tribesmen are fighting a war against farmers and loggers to stop the destruction of their lands, natives in alberta are launching lawsuits to stop oil sands, MEND has declared war against oil companies in nigeria, the americans are resisting development of oil and gas in ecologically sensitive regions, etc... it matters not whether you agree with their stance, that fact is resistance will only increase - That is part of the limits to growth.

There are strict environmental limits as well. How much extra co2 can the oceans absorb? How many rivers can provide power? How trees can we cut down? How much poison can we drink? How many glaciers can melt before people die of thirst? How much fertilizer can the soil take?

You are still misunderstanding me. This is going to happen anyway because of the limits to growth, and the finite nature of the resources that fuel economic growth. I'm talking about carefully transitioning towards that new economy - call it anticipatory adaption or whatever. The alternative is recklessness and carelessness descending into chaos.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

You are overstating. What we are seeing nowadays are no more absolute limits to growth than was the exhaustion of whale oil in the 19thc. We found a substitute then and we are doing that again now. As much as you and most other young people seem to want it, civilisation is not doomed.

The bottleneck is energy. With a goodly supply of cheap and clean energy resouce problems evaporate, since you can either recycle or use lower grade ores. That is a problem which, while it seems very recalcitrant, is one I have every confidence will be solved, there are simply too many solutions that one of them (my money's on Fusion, it's safe, clean, cheap, practically unlimited and they already have sustained reactions) will not finally be found to work

I love when someone thinks they're smart enough to tell me what I should want to do.

I pretty much do what I want, when I want, in the manner I want. I've worked my ass off to get to that point.

I just bought a nice Philips 47" LCD. It's pretty bitchin'. It ran me about $1,400.00. MondayNight Football takes on an entirely new dimension. Now, did I "need" it? No, certainly not. I wanted it, so I bought it. I didn't even finance it; paid cash.

You seem to think that I should've taken that $1,400.00 down to the local homeless shelter and given it to them.

Fuck that. I work hard, and I have no problem rewarding myself for that...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Well, I got the east Tennessee part right...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

So what is the substitute and what QTYs does it exist in?


How do you fertilize the farm with fusion? Can you build a house, wipe your ass, and make a chopstick out of fusion?

It does not matter what energy source we have, it only matters how many people are consuming and at what rate.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Thanks Mr. Spock, but this country does not function that way.

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In case you were wondering, yes, there really ARE more idiots these days....technology has made natural selection obsolete.

And yet the power infrastructure that allows that TV to work hasn't been updated in at least 50 years.
Infrastructure Report Card 2005 - U.S. ELECTRIC POWER GRID
Have fun with your TV when the power grid eventually breaks down because people like you don't worry about the other needs that should be taken care of. I, personally, am looking forward to all breaking down because people who think like you do are going to be totally fucked. Have fun with your nice TV when the power goes out.

Just remember that the needs didn't matter.

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No kidding. Why do you think the government is stepping in to buy companies? It's because most people don't give a moments notice, or thought, to anything but their immediate gratification. I am getting where I look forward to things collapsing. The people who are so used to thinking only about themselves are gonna get really fucked and then their gonna be crying out for help. The help isn't going to be found because no one is going to care. I certainly wouldn't give you any help because, after all, you can handle it all without any.

Do you know how to purify water? You had better learn.

Report Card for America's Infrastructure - DRINKING WATER [D-]

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Which proves my point - the people that think welfare is Constitutional are the ones who don't know how to read the Constitution! I said the first sentence of Article I, Section 8, which is not what you quoted.


I don't know exactly, and yes, yes, and yes, provided one has enough of it.


By your reasoning, handcuffs are unconstitutional, as it explicitly states in the 2nd Amendment that "arms shall not be infringed". I can probably come up with a bunch of other silliness, but dont' feel like poring through the text when one good example will suffice.

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Today's forecast: Government corruption.

Tomorrow's forecast: 100% chance of more 'politics as usual'

Maybe it's finally time to vote Libertarian

Do you own a television? Do you pay for internet access? Do you own a gas or electric stove? A washing machine and dryer? Jewelry?

I owned 5 televisions, pay for cable, phone and internet access, I have a washer and dryer, two vehicles, more jewelry than I ever wear, a new side-by-side refrigerator, new dining room table, new bedroom and living room furniture, lots of music equipment, lots of radio controlled airplanes, etc. and I don't owe anything except utilities, house note and insurances right now. NOBODY gave these things to me....my late husband and I WORKED for them. Did I NEED all of this stuff? No, but because I could afford it, I bought it for my pleasure.
After Katrina hit and we had an influx of people from New Orleans move into my city, the number of renters (paid for by the government) jumped drastically. Neighborhoods that were once safe are now riddled with crime and if you look in the driveways of these renters' houses, you'll see Cadillac or Lincoln SUV's, inside the homes are big screen t.v.'s fancy clothes, etc. Can these people afford all of this? Sure, as long as the government is footing the bill for them to live! Take away their Section 8 housing, renter's allowance, food stamps and/or welfare check and these folks would have to either work like my husband and I did or sell their luxury items. Now, tell me, why should any of us hard workers could up our luxury items when lots of people laying on the government's leg have the same things?
I contribute to a local charity called the Community Christian Concern of Slidell. It's a place that distributes food and clothing to those in true need but they also help people better themselves by directing them to jobs. That's the kind of charity we need, not a government handout each month at the expense of taxpayers! The government has a long history of mishandling monies to begin with and when a welfare case can afford a new SUV, something's wrong with the system.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Damn. Talk about a non-sequiter.

How is my not giving someone else that $1,400.00 going to keep the power grid from going down?

The only point you're making is that you haven't a clue what you're talking about...

__________________
Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Not the point. Wealth and growth are limited only by the wants and needs of consumers.
The vast majority of these things don't just go away, Andrew. A car can still be reduced to its component materials and used to make another car.
Huh? No, it doesn't. Efficiency in their production and use should, but doesn't always, lead to lower prices. Lower prices lead to consumers increasing demand and consumption.

Look, this is the base of your argument: Either we stop growing the population, or we're going to run out of resources. Because if we simply reduce our resource use, and technology doesn't find some other way of reusing them, or we don't find more, we're still going to run out someday. All your plan does is buy us time.
So let's give up on the possibility and begin the suffering now?
No, they're not. They're the norm. For example: Russia has a finite amount of oil. On Friday, let's say all that oil was worth $100M. By the end of trading Monday, Russia's oil was worth $116M - $16M dollars of wealth was created.
That's only a limit to growth if they succeed in limiting growth, which so far none have been able to do. Your argument seems to be: Let's limit growth artificially today because it's only going to be limited someday. Which is really the same as: Let's begin the suffering now, because we're only marching toward the inevitable.
Who knows? What I do know is that the only way to effect what you're proposing is to reduce population growth; that reduces the number of brains which might find solutions to our problems; which does make your march toward the inevitable a reality.
Well, this "alternative" has been called for probably since before humans first stepped out of caves. It hasn't come to pass yet, and I see no reason to wreak pain and suffering upon people needlessly when doing so only serves to make these predictions self-fulfilling prophecies.

Of course, you're gonna' be pretty well fucked, as well...

Yep... Sure do.

Your entire premise is silly. We'll need to purify water because I bought a fuckin' television? The country's infrastructure will collapse because I didn't give $1,400.00 to someone who you think needed it more?

Utter and complete bullshit.

The funny thing about it is that, if those things do happen, people who are prepared will be able to survive. Sure, it'll be a bit primitive, but we'll survive, and we'll survive on our own while people like you will be whining for the government to help you...

__________________
Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Damn it Steve...I've been without a job for three weeks now....you should have sent that $1400 to me so I don't have to look for another job for another month while I wait for my food stamps and welfare check to kick in!

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"