*sighs and shakes his head*

ahoy and good morning mateys!

i asked this question musingly just a few weeks ago, but now the whole thing seems to be snowballin'...yet another industry that be too-big-to-fail be needin' a shot in the arm to get through these troubled times.

as i noted in 'nother thread, the current cost 'o the bailouts be 8.5 trillion, once loan and asset guarantees are included.

today, thar be this news....
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/bu...l.html?_r=1&hp

one trillion dollars is, give or take a 100 billion, around what Social security, medicare and medicaid will cost next year...imma getting confused as to how the government can keep raisin' these vast sums 'o monies.

be thar a limit fer this kinda government help, and eventually can't an arguement be made fer small businesses to get bailouts too? imma not talkin' about anythin' too crazy, maybe a half million each fer all 'o us?

aye?

-MeadHallPirate

the steel industry is an adjunct to the auto industry, of course, they've long been predicting that a failure in one would lead to troubles in the other.

i'm a lot less upset about this than i am about bailing out the bankers. pretty much might as well bail out compulsive casino gamblers as bail out most of that lot. but we're gonna need people who work in industries that actually make something useful, autos and steel definitely fall in that category imo.

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yes. zero dollars and zero cents.

but in reality the only limit is what the rest of the world will lend us.



any openings in the pirate biz ?

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Great moments in Non-partisanship: "I won" B.H.Obama

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

*furrows his brow as he reads the wall street journal whilst enjoyin' his two eggs (sunny side up), three strips of bacon, hash browns (well done), rye toast and glass of coke classic*

imma just wonderin', be thar a time whar the government decides..."ok mateys, ye gets to sink to the bottem 'o the sea" to some part 'o the business sector?

say, fer example, that suddenly merck + johnson & johnson are suddenly in deep trouble. would we then say "adios mateys" to big pharma? or just another check gets written?

should big steel be allowed to collapse?

aye?

yarrrr?

- MeadHallPirate

ps - Daddio me hearty, the pirate biz is doin' brisk trade. a boom industry fer certain.

IMO, the democratic leadership wants to subsidize American industry so they can control it, much of which revolves around pandering to unskilled middle class workers. The dems agree that they need to make great money liked their skilled counterparts. This is their anchor to office, if they alienate the working men/women their cushy power trip will grind to a screeching halt.
Evidence of this is how Obama and his crew have devised "trickle up economics" based on creating what I call "giveaway" jobs in hopes the money flows up and strenghtens businesses (you can tell he wasn't a plumber )

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if you listen to the bean counters for those companies and the politicos who want to hand this oput,. every thing is attached to and will influence everything. While there is some truth to this, is should not matter. If the big 3 go under now or 6 months from now the pain is coming and its best to save that we are printing, then just watch it go up in flames....

The fed bailed out GMAC, the finance arm of GM, ( see below) and of course this means that Ford who said no thx to the money is now at a disadvantage as being able to offer similar financing. These people don’t *ucking think, I swear to god.





Hank's Deals on Wheels
Treasury wants to put you in a GM car today.

Hurry to your local GM dealer, because Hank Paulson has a deal for you. Within hours of receiving a $5 billion lifeline from the U.S. Treasury on Monday, GMAC -- the financing arm of General Motors -- slashed its car-loan rates and lowered its lending standards to help GM sell, sell, sell.

As of Tuesday, GMAC was offering 0% financing on several models -- hey, if 0% is good enough for Ben Bernanke, it's good enough for you -- and said it would extend credit to buyers with credit scores as low as 621 -- right on the edge of subprime territory. The median credit rating is 723.

Once Washington got into the business of owning car makers, it was only a matter of time before Hank Paulson & Co. started trying to sell cars too. It's now the American public's investment in Detroit that's on the line, after all. But Monday's bailout of GMAC, inevitable as it was, shows that the federal government has now waded so far into auto maker business that it's easier to keep marching forward than to pull back.

Take GMAC's capital structure. GMAC hasn't said whether it has secured the approval of enough of its bondholders to convert their debt into equity and to satisfy the demands of federal regulators that they do so. As of late last week, it was far from obvious that GMAC would clear this hurdle. But the Federal Reserve blinked anyway and approved its application to convert into a bank holding company.

That conversion, in turn, is supposedly necessary to make GMAC eligible for the Troubled Asset Relief Program funds it received Monday night. But if the auto makers are themselves eligible for the TARP, why should Mr. Paulson stand on ceremony when it comes to GM's financing arm? A healthy GMAC is, we are told, essential to a healthy GM, and a viable GM is needed to avert auto Armageddon, so a little thing like reducing GMAC's debt load isn't going to stand in Mr. Paulson's way.

This is not to say there aren't other awkward questions for our new public-private automobile complex. For example, Treasury has now twice driven to the rescue of Cerberus, the huge private-equity group that owns 51% of GMAC. Under the terms of the bank conversion, Cerberus will have its ownership diluted and will have to sell down its stake in GMAC to 33%. GM, which owns the other 49% of its formerly captive financing arm, will have to sell all but 10% of GMAC and give up its seats on the board. But Cerberus's 33% of a bailed-out GMAC is still worth more than 51% of a bankrupt GMAC. As with the Chrysler bailout, taxpayers have a right to ask why Cerberus is being saved without having to contribute more to the rescue.

Meanwhile, some of the vehicles on which GMAC is offering its 0% financing are those nasty, gas-guzzling SUVs that Washington loves to hate. Will Nancy Pelosi stand for this when Congress returns next week? Will those car designers at the Sierra Club insist that the best terms go to the most environmentally conscious vehicles? On second thought, forget we asked.

With taxpayer interests now welded to Detroit at the axle, Mr. Paulson is only doing what every auto dealer in America does six days a week. GMAC says the best incentives end January 5, so don't delay -- you'll be paying for those cars one way or another. As the best car salesmen like to say, what can we do to put you in this car today? We'll just check with Hank over in finance . . .



Henry Paulson's Deals on Wheels - WSJ.com

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Excellent ! (as I'm honing the blade of my cutlass...)

yes, the gravy train is only so long despite what some in DC think.

the thing that amazes me is that Lehman Brothers, the only ones to get thrown upder the bus, have not sued Dear Uncle Sam for this umbrage !

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Great moments in Non-partisanship: "I won" B.H.Obama

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

but wait, wasn't this all hank paulson and the treasury's plan? i believe paulson is a bush appointee. not sure how this is a democratic idea.

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I am talking about Obama's proposed economic stimulus plan and the domocratic party's debt to the working man/labor unions. You might read it over again.

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*returns to port after puttin' in a brief 3 hour day at work*

ahoy all!

mates, i be readin' alot of outrage and such (some darts hurled at the auto industry and a few stabs at the president elect), but so far few answers to me question;

would you approve of bailin' out the steel industry and meet their 1 trillion dollar request? or would ye let'm sink and say "good riddance!"?. also, be thar some limit on how many bailouts of these kinds that the taxpayers can afford?

aye?

aye.

-MeadHallPirate

i'd be inclined to support it. a trillion certainly sounds like a lot but if it actually goes into infrastructure and developing things like mass transit it could pay dividends for all of us in the long run. hell of a lot better than the bank bailout, which as far as i can tell got shipped off into offshore accounts, or turning our hard-earned money into things that explode fruitlessly halfway across the world.

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http://tinyurl.com/bu9b6h
http://tinyurl.com/d8jaoa
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http://tinyurl.com/dbwnar

if a trillion would solve the problems, maybe. but it wont.

will O's trillion solve anything ? no.

will it be painful letting things fail ? yes. but at least any recovery will be real and not burdoned with a thousand years of debt that we can't repay.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Great moments in Non-partisanship: "I won" B.H.Obama

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

*salutes Daddio*

ahoy mate!

i don't really see the difference who be in the white house. mr. bush has handed out trillions, and mr. obama may or may not do the same. 'tis not an issue whar, 'least to me, one can make party distinctions.

so, if i understand ye correctly, you would allow the steel industry in the united states collapse, aye? (i'm not judgin' ye on this, Daddio, or tryin' to set some kinda trap. at the moment, i don't exactly know how i feel about this meself.)

*bows*

-MeadHallPirate

its all money down the toilet irrespective of the flusher as you point out.

I think its a falicy that there will be a "collapse" of auto or steal or anything else. They came up with Chapter 11 as a very effective means to avoid collapse. I'm tired of the scare tactics and infuriated at the glad handed tossing around of incredible sums of money to this one's or that one's friends.

It will be amazing if DC does not come to understand what the 2nd ammendment is really for.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Great moments in Non-partisanship: "I won" B.H.Obama

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

The government has no business subsidizing private industry...........period!
A really bad precedent is being set here people...........pay attention.

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