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Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
Money Stock Measures
U.S. Census Clock
U.S. Population By Age And Sex
U.S. Net Worth Distribution
Okay .. according to the above links, I've estimated really roughly that there are 226 million people residing in the U.S. 20 years of age or older ("adults" with adult financial responsibilites) and 8.978600 trillon dollars of M2 money available for them to use (that's right, "use", as we all know that the fed is the one who owns the money).
Simple division gives each adult 39,278 dollars.
With that money, each adult must take care of him/her self .. and their kids (of which there are 85.3 million in the U.S.).
Now, that might be doable, if income and out-go kept that figure dynamically stable.
But, as we all know, and as the 4th link above presents in percentages, 20% own roughly 89% of everything.
So for 80% of the 226 million adults -- 180.8 million of them -- their 39,278 dollar share of America's money is reduced by that 89% .. to a mere 4,320 dollars apiece pittance.
Considering that one's average holding is subject to a 20% income and out-go average per month for those who have a job -- 864 dollars of spending power on average for these poor people -- now tell me something: how does anyone in America live on that tiny amount of money .. and take care of their kids?
They can't. Scores of millions of Americans simply can't take care of themselves and their children.
And why?
Because there simply isn't enough money to go around under the current culture of monetary distribution .. a culture that isn't likely to change as long as money exists.
And even if the government started printing a ton of money and giving it away to these people, the high instant inflation reaction wouldn't leave them much buying power.
I find I have a difficult time telling any of these 180 million American adults to just pick themselves up by their own bootstraps and make something of themselves financially. The odds of success are astronomically against the vast majority of them from the get-go.
There simply isn't any money available for them to obtain.
At best, they must wait it out, if they can survive, until someone higher on the economic ladder drops dead and falls to the ground, whose place one of the lucky one's in the survial lottery can then climb up and take.
For though everyone who has money spends it, the vast majority, including the wealthy, have some kind of an income to maintain their holding figure .. so whether one's average money holdings are in the average annual 4,320 dollar pittance range or the two to three billon dollar fortune category, nobody's net worth really changes all that much all that often, according to history.
Thus, yes, Virginia, there is no Santa Claus for scores of millions of Americans .. and, as the financial facts portend, for many millions of them there is also no car, no home .. and very little food.
This is absolutely unacceptable.
So .. what do we do about it?!
The great "silent" majority centrist uprising sweeping America: Centrists: The Great Majority -- A New American Political Party
Because the sane 75% of us at the center of the Amerian political spectrum are tired of living under the dysfunctional craziness of the 20% on the wings who suffer from liberal v. conservative BIPOLAR conflict disorder!
Secretary of Defense
Your logic is faulty.
While there may only be on average $4,000 or so for each person to use, they use it more than once. You are ignoring the velocity of the money supply.
Everything after that is incorrect due to your initial logic flaw in the analysis.
I always find it strange that only reasonable people agree with me.
County Executive
The money supply isn't a dispositive indicator of economic vitality. If it were, the answer would be simple: print more money.
Of every dollar spent at the gas pump, sixty cents leaves the American economy. The hundreds of billions of current account trade deficit we rack up each year represents lost jobs, income and tax revenue. Pumping harder doesn't do much unless you patch the holes in the bucket.
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
There is no flaw.Originally Posted by RDK
I presented your "velocity" factor: 20% of holdings per month on average. That's where the $864/month from the $4320 avg per capita of the 80% of adults over 19 is derived.
So by your own standards, I've accurately succeeded.
Since it was quite obvious that I included what you criticized me for not including .. I have to wonder what blinded you to the obvious fact of that inclusion.
Ideology comes to mind.
Many people are ideologically incapable of seeing just how truly difficult life is here in America for scores of millions of Americans.
They will look at the statistics .. more than six million homeless .. nearly 15% unemployment .. 52 million under-incomed American workers .. including family members, over 130 million Americans thus seriously adversely affected ..
.. And one would rationally think that they would grasp, the meaning of these numbers, the suffering they imply ..
.. But, no .. blinded by their ideology, they cannot see the truth of it, compelled instead to irrationalize a paradigmic-based denial ..
.. Of what is clearly obvious: the reality presented in the OP.
The great "silent" majority centrist uprising sweeping America: Centrists: The Great Majority -- A New American Political Party
Because the sane 75% of us at the center of the Amerian political spectrum are tired of living under the dysfunctional craziness of the 20% on the wings who suffer from liberal v. conservative BIPOLAR conflict disorder!
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
But the OP isn't about the economy.
It's about people, the 80% in America who are suffering.
Considering the "economy" is 89% from 20% of the population, 80% of Americans are participating in only 11% of the economy.
The jobless "recovery" in the present recession is an indicator of this.
I addressed that in the OP: if the government printed more money, inflation would eat it up. That's what happened in Zimbabwe, which lead to them printing even more money, including million-dollar bills! .. that were pretty much worthless.
Yes .. sadly true .. the vector of the suffering presented in the OP is indeed increasing.
The great "silent" majority centrist uprising sweeping America: Centrists: The Great Majority -- A New American Political Party
Because the sane 75% of us at the center of the Amerian political spectrum are tired of living under the dysfunctional craziness of the 20% on the wings who suffer from liberal v. conservative BIPOLAR conflict disorder!
Secretary of Defense
Yes there is.
You mix funds held, i.e. wealth, with income.
These are two different things.
You reduce money held by taxes which apply to income.
You are so far out of touch with any sort of rational analysis so as to make this thread meaningless.
I always find it strange that only reasonable people agree with me.
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
:rolleyes:
The great "silent" majority centrist uprising sweeping America: Centrists: The Great Majority -- A New American Political Party
Because the sane 75% of us at the center of the Amerian political spectrum are tired of living under the dysfunctional craziness of the 20% on the wings who suffer from liberal v. conservative BIPOLAR conflict disorder!
Vice President
4,320 dollars apiece in any given week. The money stock figures linked is how much money is available in a given period, not the total limit of wealth.
There are there are over 8 trillion M2 dollars in week.
If every adult had 4,320 dollars apiece each week we wouldn't be considering that a pittance until inflation ran out of control.
The total of all wealth held in the U.S. is over 44 trillion dollars not a meager 8.9 trillion. People are wealthy measured on their total wealth not just the current cash supply they lay claim to.
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
No. That's not a "new" set of 8.98 trillion M2 dollars each week. :rolleyes:
That's 8.98 trillion M2 dollars that existed in total in the U.S. at the end of March, 2011.
That's what the first table in the first OP link clearly presents.
The second table in the first OP link clearly presents what the total M2 dollars in the U.S. was at the end of each of the prior 13 weeks, for vector tracking purposes.
How could you misread these easily comprehendable tables?
Ideology isn't dumbing you down too, is it?!
But a piece of land, with or without a building on it, a coin, stamp, art collection and the like, doesn't have the power to purchase .. anything.
Until it's converted to M2 money, it can't buy a thing .. oh, it can be traded in barter, I suppose, .. but that won't , clothe you, or feed you .. until it's converted in whole or in part to M2 money.
And guess what, who owns all those things? That's right 20% of the people.
The remaining 80% -- who average holding 4,320 dollars at a given moment with an associated average gross monthly income of 864 dollars -- they don't have any of those things, on average.
Oh, a few of them may once have had a few of those things, maybe, but they don't now -- no one grossing a mere pittance of 864 dollars/month has those things, as they long ago liquidated them to survive, to pay for food and shelter and care for themselves and their kids.
People who on average get by on 864 dollars/month .. or less, as is the case for many millions of Americans .. they don't have any land, or buildings, or valuable collections of any kind.
They are in real poverty, scores of millions of them -- real, lingering, hopeless and very painful poverty.
That's reality in America .. whether you like it or not .. whether your ideology lets you accept it or not.
The great "silent" majority centrist uprising sweeping America: Centrists: The Great Majority -- A New American Political Party
Because the sane 75% of us at the center of the Amerian political spectrum are tired of living under the dysfunctional craziness of the 20% on the wings who suffer from liberal v. conservative BIPOLAR conflict disorder!
County Executive
Tired old joke from Econ 101:
"Bill Gates walks into a bar. The average disposable income of the patrons in the bar is $200 million..."
The point: averages are deceptive, especially without a robust formula for standard deviation as the context.
Wealth distribution directs economic activity in important ways. No matter how much dough Bill Gates has got in the bank, he isn't going to buy much more Preparation H than anyone else.
As income rises, the percentage of our income each of us spends just getting through the night goes down. In a consumer economy such as ours, growing income inequality stifles economic growth.
No business will expand capacity or hire additional workers when operating at half capacity. Our consumer economy is spluttering along because Americans aren't buying as much as they need to in order to make the thing run properly.
Why aren't American consumers buying more? It's not rocket science. They don't have any money!
Cutting taxes on millionaires isn't going to help much. Gates isn't going to spend his windfall on an extra tube of Preparation H and the Preparation H factory isn't going to expand if they are turning the stuff out at only 50% of present capacity.
Trickle down doesn't work. It never has. Trickle up works great. It is what once made our standard of living the envy of the world. Reaganomics is nuts.
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
Empircally true .. the only value averages have is in general and with regard to intuitive implications .. so if we know that 20% own 89% of everything, we can accurately conclude that there's a lot of suffering going on in the great 80% majority.
Very true with regard to understanding economies of scale ..
.. And I love the meaningful symbolism in your choice of product example.
Yes .. that's key to understanding prerequisites of economic growth.
Indeed.
Unless a business sees a solid future trend that justifies ramping up production, it's not going to make risk-the-business moves that are contradicted by the level of present sales.
Bingo!
Yeah, the sad truth of it.
And unless Bill sees a great new product and ready customers with money in their hands to buy it, he'll just sit on his money, as so many businesses are currently doing, and buy some pictures to hang on the office walls, replace a PC or two, but that's about it -- no reason to spend foolishly .. and without real potential money-holding customers coming his way, such "domestic investment" spending would indeed be foolish.
As testament to how nuts Reganomics truly is, it's arguably the first dominoe in the recent chain that's put us in this nutty dire domestic mess we're presently in!
Thanks for your foundationally valuable comments.
The great "silent" majority centrist uprising sweeping America: Centrists: The Great Majority -- A New American Political Party
Because the sane 75% of us at the center of the Amerian political spectrum are tired of living under the dysfunctional craziness of the 20% on the wings who suffer from liberal v. conservative BIPOLAR conflict disorder!
Vice President
Never said it was.
[QOUTE]That's 8.98 trillion M2 dollars that existed in total in the U.S. at the end of March, 2011.[/QUOTE]
Yet, it's not a measure of wealth. If your are presenting the Math of Poverty you must include all wealth not just 20% or less of it. The wealth people hold helps generate money.
You seem to be unclear on the concept of wealth.You use land to get cash. You borrow using land as an asset or sell the land, that's how folks use wealth to get money. Even though you seem to almost get it you clearly don't.But a piece of land, with or without a building on it, a coin, stamp, art collection and the like, doesn't have the power to purchase .. anything.
Your figures and conclusions are rather creative since 90%+ of all households have a gross income over 864 a month.The remaining 80% -- who average holding 4,320 dollars at a given moment with an associated average gross monthly income of 864 dollars -- they don't have any of those things, on average.
Screw ideology, I can do math.That's reality in America .. whether you like it or not .. whether your ideology lets you accept it or not.
They don't.
But your premise is silly...
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
Oh you most certainly did.
So?
"Wealth" isn't the topic of the OP. Poverty is.
You're trying to change the subject to something irrelevant and meaningless to the reality of poverty.
In the OP I present the average holding -- 4,320 dollars -- of 80% of Americans 20+ years of age.
That's about poverty not weatlh.
Don't try to change the subject or digress with irrevancies.
Face the minor chords of the relevant music.
Are you having a reading problem, or is your ideology so overwhemling your rational abilities???
The poor don't have wealth .. of any kind.
When it comes to M2 money, I presented the total amount, the 8.97 trillion total truth of it at the end of March 2011, and that includes all money owned by everyone, the poor and the wealthy alike.
Money, the math of where it is and how much of it is where it is, and the poverty amount of it, is the title of this and is what this thread is all about .. and that's what I've accurately presented.
Your criticisms are unjustified .. and are all ideologically compelled.
Irrelevant .. and functionally inaccurate.
Money is generated by the fed, and only by the fed.
When someone sells a piece of land, money changes hands, that's all, no money is "generated"; no money is "created".
The wealthy cannot create additional money, they simply spread it around .. among themselves
None of this creates money for the poor, and none of this changes the average money holding for the 80% of Americans averaging holdings of 4,320 dollars.
Your "trickle down" religion serves a false god .. and dumbs you down.
Your accusations are false.
Your presentation here is totally topically irrelevant, way off base, digressive in the way it speaks to nothing of substantive matter in this theme.
And your assumption that the wealthy "create" money is ridiculous in its inaccuracy.
You seem to forget that the purchaser of land simply gave his money to the seller -- no money is created in that process.
You use the word "creative" as a criticism.
Yet the figures and obvious conclusions I present are dead on.
Again, your ideology just can't accept how bad things truly are for scores of millions of Americans.
The question is why does your ideology so overpower your rational reasoning ability?
Really? Show me your link of proof.
But let's say it was true, for the sake of argument .. you have then changed the subject by your "households" categorization which is virtually meaningless to the much more relevant OP theme of per capita 20+ year-old adults totalling 220 million American individuals, all with individual needs.
So a family of five with two parents making 1200 dollars/month to support themselves and their three kids, yeah, they make more than 864 dollars/month as a household, but the money must still be spent on individuals for their individual needs of clothing, shelter and food, and that 1200 bucks won't go very far.
Sure, the two over-20 year-olds in the family combine for a household income over 864 dollars/month, but that's still only 432 dolars apiece for them, and thus these two poor peole are simply rendered invisible by your "household" irrelevancy.
And so from your perspective, the many people rendered homeless in the recession who are residing with family or friends they were lucky enough to have take them in, are totallly lost in your "household" statistic, and so, thereby, is their suffering from your perspective.
And when a bunch of part-time minimum wage sufferers group together to rent a cheap one-bedroom shelter, though the combined income of the four or five of them may exceed 864 dollars/month for the "household", they're all still abjectly poor, because they're making way less than that individually.
Your "household" digression is meaningless with regard to the visceral experience of poverty suffered by scores of millions of individual Americans.
Indeed, your ideoglocially based "household" digression, designed as it is to create the facade that everything is just fine in America and is not as bad as it truly is that was presented in the OP, is an example of self-serving smoke and mirrors.
Yeah right. :rolleyes:
You simpletonly add up mushy oranges with which to refute solid apples.
I agree though with your first clause: your ideology is screwed, as it obviously prevents you from thinking straight, seeing that your presentation simply doesn't add up .. and it prevents you from accepting the horrific truth of the great and terrible degree of poverty and its suffering in America.
The great "silent" majority centrist uprising sweeping America: Centrists: The Great Majority -- A New American Political Party
Because the sane 75% of us at the center of the Amerian political spectrum are tired of living under the dysfunctional craziness of the 20% on the wings who suffer from liberal v. conservative BIPOLAR conflict disorder!
Vice President
I have always thought as we changed into the Reagonomic model, that is what eventually led us to the dire conditions today. There was much good that came from the New Deal mindset, and then the Kensian theory in which the gov't tried to manage a free market economy as to shorten the business cycles and recesssions. Gov't spending went up, tax revenues went down but history seems to prove that this stimulas seemed to shorten the down side of the business cycle and recession. We did not suffer another depression post WW2 using this economic model, with gov't intervention in not only the economy but the distribution of wealth that help to create a huge middle class.Empircally true .. the only value averages have is in general and with regard to intuitive implications .. so if we know that 20% own 89% of everything, we can accurately conclude that there's a lot of suffering going on in the great 80% majority.
Very true with regard to understanding economies of scale ..
.. And I love the meaningful symbolism in your choice of product example.
Yes .. that's key to understanding prerequisites of economic growth.
Indeed.
Unless a business sees a solid future trend that justifies ramping up production, it's not going to make risk-the-business moves that are contradicted by the level of present sales.
Bingo!
Yeah, the sad truth of it.
And unless Bill sees a great new product and ready customers with money in their hands to buy it, he'll just sit on his money, as so many businesses are currently doing, and buy some pictures to hang on the office walls, replace a PC or two, but that's about it -- no reason to spend foolishly .. and without real potential money-holding customers coming his way, such "domestic investment" spending would indeed be foolish.
As testament to how nuts Reganomics truly is, it's arguably the first dominoe in the recent chain that's put us in this nutty dire domestic mess we're presently in!
Thanks for your foundationally valuable comments.
As the cost of energy increased expoentially in the 70's, and stagflation ensued, the bad economic conditions provided a hole into which to slip this supply side economic theory. The conditions created by the much greater price of energy, gave the Cons and Neocons another chance at getting rid of the economic model that had served us well post WW2. Business once again was allowed to run the economic show, as they had pre 1929, and we can clearly see the results of this today. This is what FDR and even Ike fought against, to be finally defeated, starting in 1980.
We will always have our poor. But what the gov't should do is to maximize the chances of the poor pulling themselves out of poverty, as I saw so many folks do here in my area in the 1950's. Bottom up economics tends to do this much more than trickle down. We have proof of that post WW2, and also proof of what trickle down yields, when tied at the waist with business once again running the economic show.
I really believe we are in the grand mess today, with a growing class of poor, due to the change in economic policies, that occurred when the Cons wanted the free market to run the show, unfettered compared with the previous model used post WW2. That sends more of the income and wealth to the top, and when that happens average folks feel the pain. There was a reason we did not have another depression and that involves gov't being involved in the market and the macro economy. To wrest it from the hands of the too greedy Capitalists who don't mind shitting in the big bed that is this Nation. Gotta fetter those bastards or they will happily create the new poor. History proves it.
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