Thread: The two-party financial-reform two-step

The reforms that were instituted after 1929, gave us a financial system and economy that did not suffer another Depression, UNTIL that sector was deregulated. The business cycle of course did not go away, but the reforms did a helluva lot to stop depression and panics. Then the banking and finance boys lobbied to get those restraits changed, starting during the stagflation era in the 70's, and as the regulated banks could not offer the same rate of return as mutual funds, etc. In order to increase profits, the deregs started, and it eventually led to the S and L scandal, and then later on to the 08 crash.

This is what the Repub idea of a freer markets yield, and something we seem to have to relearn over and over again. The truth is, if you give any business too much freedom, they will always cause great harm upon the average people. Yet, the Pubs just refuse to acknowledge what humans have always done, when it comes to making a buck.

Corporate globalization could have never arose here without all of the deregs that took place. There were barriers, in those regulations of both banking and finance as well as general business. Business was always waiting in the wings, for a political movement that would once again give them free rein, and the Neo Cons and Cons gladly supplied them with that.

The banking and finance industy is the most powerful lobby group in D.C. today. What you see around you, the economy, the world economy is due to the deregs. What I don't understand is HOW the Pubs and some of the Dems cannot see what the deregs have yielded. This puzzles me greatly. Apparently as long as a few are gaining great wealth at the demise of everyone else, it's good to go. I mean, how else could one interpret this? When one is so pro business as to crash a system, to put millions in the unemployment lines with offshoring, just how does this serve the Nation and her People?

It took business many decades to once again get into the position to call the shots on public policy. But they are back, and stronger than ever. You have a lot to fear, in the future from this very powerful group of folks. What they will bring the American People is what you have seen with the S and L and the 08 crash. In both cases the taxpayers footed the bill. And that is how you can know of the tremendous power of these business and financiers. That is the proof, if you need it. But unlike the S and L scandal, no one like Keating is doing any prison time on this one. Just more proof as to the ascendency of power of business especially the banking and finance community. Brought to you by the uber pro business folks, better known as the Repub party. The enemy of the average American, who has been duped, through propaganda from the Right. I think it speaks more to the level of intelligence of the Repub voters, who will vote against their own self interest. And that is quite a feat, to get someone to vote against their own best self interest. I have no doubt Fox has played a prime role in this, and I reckon the charm of those nice looking gals on Fox may have something to do with it. Sex sell, even when it comes to politics, or so it seems.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

The reforms that were instituted after 1929, gave us a financial system and economy that did not suffer another Depression, UNTIL that sector was deregulated. The business cycle of course did not go away, but the reforms did a helluva lot to stop depression and panics. Then the banking and finance boys lobbied to get those restraits changed, starting during the stagflation era in the 70's, and as the regulated banks could not offer the same rate of return as mutual funds, etc. In order to increase profits, the deregs started, and it eventually led to the S and L scandal, and then later on to the 08 crash.

This is what the Repub idea of a freer markets yield, and something we seem to have to relearn over and over again. The truth is, if you give any business too much freedom, they will always cause great harm upon the average people. Yet, the Pubs just refuse to acknowledge what humans have always done, when it comes to making a buck.

Actually government picking the winners and losers causes great harm upon everyone. Business is just that, business, and the market will take care of them either well, or poorly as they deserve.

The economy goes in cycles, sometimes good, sometimes bad. What you want to do, is get rid of the bad. Which is impossible, you take out necessary corrections and replace them with catastrophic disasters. Why you want to kill millions of people in the name of "saving them" I'll never understand.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Corporate globalization could have never arose here without all of the deregs that took place. There were barriers, in those regulations of both banking and finance as well as general business. Business was always waiting in the wings, for a political movement that would once again give them free rein, and the Neo Cons and Cons gladly supplied them with that.

The banking and finance industy is the most powerful lobby group in D.C. today. What you see around you, the economy, the world economy is due to the deregs. What I don't understand is HOW the Pubs and some of the Dems cannot see what the deregs have yielded. This puzzles me greatly. Apparently as long as a few are gaining great wealth at the demise of everyone else, it's good to go. I mean, how else could one interpret this? When one is so pro business as to crash a system, to put millions in the unemployment lines with offshoring, just how does this serve the Nation and her People?

Getting government out of the way of picking winners and losers benefits everyone. Just doesn't do it quickly. As the markets and the environment adjusts, it finds it's own equilibrium. The problem we have with the deregulation, is the wholesale purchasing of favors from the government. Which is a huge problem with both parties, but the biggest contributor to that is the Democrats and we both know it.

Off-shoring happens because the environment is better somewhere else, than here to do it.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

It took business many decades to once again get into the position to call the shots on public policy.

If you think that, you haven't been paying attention at all. They've been doing it a LONG time.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

But they are back, and stronger than ever. You have a lot to fear, in the future from this very powerful group of folks.

Yep, you should fear a government for sale. Ours has been for hundreds of years.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

What they will bring the American People is what you have seen with the S and L and the 08 crash. In both cases the taxpayers footed the bill.

Who handed them the bill? Business? No...wasn't business. It was the government. The only one who could hand the taxpayers the bill.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

And that is how you can know of the tremendous power of these business and financiers. That is the proof, if you need it. But unlike the S and L scandal, no one like Keating is doing any prison time on this one. Just more proof as to the ascendency of power of business especially the banking and finance community.

Actually it's proof the government is hopelessly corrupt. But do go on venting your anger at the symptom instead of the disease.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Brought to you by the uber pro business folks, better known as the Repub party.

Brought to you by government, better known as the Republican, and Democratic parties.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

The enemy of the average American, who has been duped, through propaganda from the Right.

The enemy of the average American is government. You've been brainwashed to believe government is the source of the cure, instead of the problem.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

I think it speaks more to the level of intelligence of the Repub voters, who will vote against their own self interest.

Vote against your interest today, to promote your interests for you, and your children tomorrow. Absolutely. But liberals are looters, who care nothing for their children, only that the loot will last their lifetime.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

And that is quite a feat, to get someone to vote against their own best self interest. I have no doubt Fox has played a prime role in this, and I reckon the charm of those nice looking gals on Fox may have something to do with it. Sex sell, even when it comes to politics, or so it seems.

Apparently you're easily swayed by such things. Try using the head on top of your shoulders for a change.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Who handed them the bill? Business? No...wasn't business. It was the government. The only one who could hand the taxpayers the bill.

And who picks the government?

The taxpayers. The taxpayers may not deserve what happened, but they ultimately were responsible for what happened by voting for our 1 party system.

Brought to you by government, better known as the Republican, and Democratic parties.

I agree here, the dems were just as complicit as the republicans at throwing taxpayer money towards the banks while failing to regulate them. Obama especially dropped any pretense of attempting to regulate the banking industry.

Maybe someday the sheeple will stop supporting our 1 party system and vote for reasonable people instead of people with R's and D's.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

And who picks the government?

The taxpayers. The taxpayers may not deserve what happened, but they ultimately were responsible for what happened by voting for our 1 party system.



I agree here, the dems were just as complicit as the republicans at throwing taxpayer money towards the banks while failing to regulate them. Obama especially dropped any pretense of attempting to regulate the banking industry.

Maybe someday the sheeple will stop supporting our 1 party system and vote for reasonable people instead of people with R's and D's.

If by reasonable people you mean ones who want less government, less taxation, less regulation, less everything from government.

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Actually government picking the winners and losers causes great harm upon everyone. Business is just that, business, and the market will take care of them either well, or poorly as they deserve.

The economy goes in cycles, sometimes good, sometimes bad. What you want to do, is get rid of the bad. Which is impossible, you take out necessary corrections and replace them with catastrophic disasters. Why you want to kill millions of people in the name of "saving them" I'll never understand.


Getting government out of the way of picking winners and losers benefits everyone. Just doesn't do it quickly. As the markets and the environment adjusts, it finds it's own equilibrium. The problem we have with the deregulation, is the wholesale purchasing of favors from the government. Which is a huge problem with both parties, but the biggest contributor to that is the Democrats and we both know it.

Off-shoring happens because the environment is better somewhere else, than here to do it.


If you think that, you haven't been paying attention at all. They've been doing it a LONG time.



Yep, you should fear a government for sale. Ours has been for hundreds of years.



Who handed them the bill? Business? No...wasn't business. It was the government. The only one who could hand the taxpayers the bill.



Actually it's proof the government is hopelessly corrupt. But do go on venting your anger at the symptom instead of the disease.



Brought to you by government, better known as the Republican, and Democratic parties.


The enemy of the average American is government. You've been brainwashed to believe government is the source of the cure, instead of the problem.



Vote against your interest today, to promote your interests for you, and your children tomorrow. Absolutely. But liberals are looters, who care nothing for their children, only that the loot will last their lifetime.



Apparently you're easily swayed by such things. Try using the head on top of your shoulders for a change.

If I have been swayed, it was because I just finished reading the history of the G.D. what preceded it, and the reforms that came afterwards. Along with what the Bretton Woods deal did in opening the door for future globalization, not to mention the deregs on business and the banking and finance industry that allowed this crap to happen.

While FDR was able to get through monumental gov't regulation with us entering into WW2, business interests did not like the regulations. And for good reason, of course. The banking finance sector sure hated them. But what those regs did was to provided a sound financial system that suffered no depressions, UNTIL they were deregulated. So, my head is firmly on my shoulders. Are you sure yours is?

NOW, the Dems, some Dems were involved in the deregs of business and the financiers, but this was odd given that the Dems were the ones who got the regs to begin with, while the Repubs were mostly dead set against them from the get-go. So, who should I blame the most? The folks that regulated, or the party that was always against the regs from the start? So when the deregs were allowed to occur, which party never liked em to begin with, and who would fight to get what they wanted? Yep, that would be the Repubs.


The cost of energy starting in 1973 put a whammy on the economy and for good reason. The effectiveness of Keynesian theory did not work against stagflation, which would not have occurred without the tripling of energy costs. This helped to open the door for supply side economics, the deregs as business and banking and finance were hurting. Instead of cycling out of this downward turn, instead it allowed for another economic model and theory to be used, and we can see the results of those changes today, when you look at average Americans. This was brand new ground, this corporate globalization, but the lack of regulations was not new ground, and the effectiveness of those regulations were proved over decades.


Have the Dems deserted principles, due to the power of money from financiers and business. Sure. But which party actually drove this? From which side did this free unfettered market arise? You know that answer, at least I think you do.

I am afraid the Free Market without regulations will always doom average folks. It will doom because human are driven by greed. We knew this post 1929. And you, and too many others either don't know about it, or dismiss it. It's not like the gov't over time has had to regulate, starting with the monopolies of the 19th century. No regulation will always mean average folks become the fodder for the elites. And we continue on relearning this over and over, once we come to our senses. But it doesn't last as the power of the "haves" generally end up getting their way over time.

Wall St. socialism: what's mine is mine; what's yours is ours.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

If I have been swayed, it was because I just finished reading the history of the G.D. what preceded it, and the reforms that came afterwards. Along with what the Bretton Woods deal did in opening the door for future globalization, not to mention the deregs on business and the banking and finance industry that allowed this crap to happen.

While FDR was able to get through monumental gov't regulation with us entering into WW2, business interests did not like the regulations. And for good reason, of course. The banking finance sector sure hated them. But what those regs did was to provided a sound financial system that suffered no depressions, UNTIL they were deregulated. So, my head is firmly on my shoulders. Are you sure yours is?

Yup, it is. We didn't have economic downturns during, or after WW2 for some time because of WW2 and the destruction of most of the rest of the world.

Might wanna look at the global environment there bro.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

NOW, the Dems, some Dems were involved in the deregs of business and the financiers, but this was odd given that the Dems were the ones who got the regs to begin with, while the Repubs were mostly dead set against them from the get-go. So, who should I blame the most? The folks that regulated, or the party that was always against the regs from the start? So when the deregs were allowed to occur, which party never liked em to begin with, and who would fight to get what they wanted? Yep, that would be the Repubs.

So you're saying all the deregulation you hate happened from the years 2000-2004, which are the only 4 years Republicans had control of the government.

Democrats LOVE picking the winners and losers. Winners being those who pay them, losers being those who do not. Don't get me wrong, Republicans like it too, they just don't have as much practice at doing it.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

The cost of energy starting in 1973 put a whammy on the economy and for good reason. The effectiveness of Keynesian theory did not work against stagflation, which would not have occurred without the tripling of energy costs. This helped to open the door for supply side economics, the deregs as business and banking and finance were hurting. Instead of cycling out of this downward turn, instead it allowed for another economic model and theory to be used, and we can see the results of those changes today, when you look at average Americans. This was brand new ground, this corporate globalization, but the lack of regulations was not new ground, and the effectiveness of those regulations were proved over decades.

Keynesian theory has never worked. I guess you missed that. 14 Trillion and change in debt calls it a complete and utter failure.

It isn't a lack of regulation that's the problem, it's the selective manner it's applied, because government is for sale. Again, you're blaming the symptom, instead of the disease.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Have the Dems deserted principles, due to the power of money from financiers and business. Sure. But which party actually drove this? From which side did this free unfettered market arise? You know that answer, at least I think you do.

The Democratic Party drove it. Right alongside the Republicans. They just have the media on their side to blame the Republicans. And some people apparently are dumb enough to believe it.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

I am afraid the Free Market without regulations will always doom average folks. It will doom because human are driven by greed. We knew this post 1929. And you, and too many others either don't know about it, or dismiss it. It's not like the gov't over time has had to regulate, starting with the monopolies of the 19th century. No regulation will always mean average folks become the fodder for the elites. And we continue on relearning this over and over, once we come to our senses. But it doesn't last as the power of the "haves" generally end up getting their way over time.

That's right. Everyone is driven by their own self-interest. Time to start recognizing that fact and run a system which recognizes it. All you're wanting to do is continue to have government pick the winners and losers.

We all lose when they do that.

WoW. I really appreciate every single one of these replies. Sincerely. Many thanks, much respect.

Don't have too much time right now but will be back. Just a few thoughts that have been rumbling 'round my mind for a while before I gotta go elsewhere.

I really am impressed with the amount & quality of thoughtviews expressed here. No shit, & it makes me more hopeful that we can someday arrive at some solutions. Soon come?

Maybe I'm a tad impatient but my mind really is still boggling that there is still no financial reform. & I mean in the good ole precariously United States of America. Other Countries are attempting to address. Here? It sometimes seems it's either, 'No problem, no solution' or 'Divided we are falling.'

& one of the underlying factors to consider in the present day as opposed to even a short 50 years ago is how much the world has changed in that short time. It's a blink of the eye considering how long Humanity has been here, working on the same problems, being curious about the same kinds of things, et cetera.

& I think of the many wise people from our past. Respice. Adspice. Prospice. Examine the past. Examine the present. Examine the future.

When people speak about quick fixes or immediate (& mostly self-involved) gratification to problems that have been growing for at least decades, I think of Eugene Debs.

I am not a Labor Leader; I do not want you to follow me or anyone else; if you are looking for a Moses to lead you out of this capitalist wilderness, you will stay right where you are. I would not lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I led you in, some one else would lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get yourself out of your present condition.
-Eugene Debs

Hearts, heads & hands. Many of them working together.

Progress in government, the arts & sciences, in technology, etc. often involves a declaration of independence from the old entrenched ways of looking & doing. Then an awareness & recognition of the interdependence of the many things (often leading to a progression or at least, a process can then emerge).

& I admit this may even seem a bit counter-intuitive based on the many successes of applying the Cartesian model. (again, my issues with Descartes!)

I don't believe there is any one way of looking that will act as 'savior.' I think these types of faith-based belief systems, which look to one system as 'savior', sometimes lead to a way of thinking & doing similar to a plantation or serfdom mentality. When these types of systems were the status quo, very few people could imagine a better way of doing things, & of course, things could always be worse. When THAT is the mind-set (in stone), it often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy & things remain that way, i.e., the status quo.

Look around you. In reality, the systems are interdependent, as are the people.

I think it takes courage to imagine a potentially better, albeit different way of seeing & doing things. Courage to discard the cliches & mental masturbation techniques. There's a pragmatism in this too - awareness that the old ways are NOT WORKING. I believe it to be necessary to use a different level of thinking to solve or resolve problems rather than using the one that got us into the problems in the first place.

Gotta go now! Bye! (Thanks again for your food for thoughts)

Originally Posted by George Aligator

Wall St. socialism: what's mine is mine; what's yours is ours.

Isn't that pretty much also the mantra of the "let's tax the rich" crowd?

WoW & how did that happen? WhudIsay? Where did everybody go?

Why still no financial reform?

• Is it because we don't need reform?
  
• Is it because we can't agree on the form it would take?

Or what? Conditions remain the same as before, should we expect the same 'boom & bust' to repeat itself in ever shortening time frames?


Sincerely & mind bogglingly yours,

Quinn