Thread: Stop Coddling the super Rich

Originally Posted by michael h

Flowery word man, Roll eyeman, Insult man, how Tashi Deleks be you doing ... gracing us ignorant posters with your presence ... a short break from your path to awakening. Let me know when you awaken.

Insult man. That's a good one. And you wonder why I don’t take you seriously?

Data, graphs, and charts.

I know it is your habit to posts graphs and charts that do not support your claims and are irrelevant to the discussion, for example your unemployment graph below. You dismiss without rebuttal any data that does not agree with your already firmly held dogma.

This is what one might look like.
Housing Market: Double-Dip in 2011? The national picture remains bleak, but regional bright spots exist. (2)

Your article presents some data about the housing market, but nothing that contradicts what I wrote, nor any of the hard data that directly contradicts your standard rants about free trade or out sourcing or on this thread about increasing the tax rates on the rich. I laid it all out beginning with post #17 here The Factory of Selective Moral Outrage, by Victor Davis Hanson Not only will those who read that thread learn how baseless your claims are, they will see the standard tactics

Originally Posted by Mahasattva

when a person’s cherished dogma has been shown to rest on a foundation of wet sand and their claims are built out of rotten wood and ignorance -- what else is there to do, if they refuse to allow the evidence and data to lead them to the logical conclusion and continue to cling to their proven falsehoods -- all that is left for them is to malign and ridicule and insult and dismiss anything and anyone who does not bow down to their illogical assertions.

Presenting graphs without any explanatory context and that have no causal connection to your claims does nothing except show your inability to engage in critical thinking.



Yep, that the unemployment rate since 1948. I know you wish to attribute our current unemployment rate to out sourcing and foreign trade, but that assertions is directly challenged by the fact that up until Obama took office the unemployment rate was at all time lows. Bush’s average was around 5.2% while Clinton’s was just a little higher. You have to go back to the Carter years to find unemployment rates as high as Obama’s.

link to replace oversized pic

Which is why it is stupid to attempt to compete in manufacturing that is low skilled and low wage and why our manufacturing base is more oriented toward high skilled high wage labor.


www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/ichcc_03082011.pdf[/QUOTE]

As I wrote here:

Originally Posted by Mahasattva

Manufacturing in America has moved to high skilled labor, innovation, and technologically intensive industries.

“Industry that requires cheap labor has been outsourced, which has been a net benefit for both Americans and those countries which have been able to expand their own economies. There is no casual connection between the declining percentages of GDP contributed by the manufacturing sector and the housing market meltdown. We make more today then we have ever made.

The facts about U.S. manufacturing above are from: Forging A Second American Century - Forbes.com What really stands in the way of American manufacturing? To quote the article: “A 2008 study by National Association of Manufacturers affiliate organization The Manufacturing Institute and the Manufacturer's Alliance/MAPI compared the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. to a group of nine industrial nations including Germany, Japan, China and Mexico. Because of higher taxes, energy and regulatory costs, U.S. manufacturers face a 17.6% structural cost disadvantage when competing against firms from these nine countries. But progress is being made. The same group estimated that just two years earlier, in 2006, American firms faced a 31.7% structural cost disadvantage.”

What do all of the Democrat-Progressives call for on the left, what do all of the protectionists and isolationists call for on the right … higher taxes and greater regulations.”

Perhaps IF we removed the 17.6% (at least that’s what it was, with Obama it has probably gone back up) structural cost disadvantage government has saddled on manufacturing our hourly compensation levels would rise.

tashi deleks,

M

Originally Posted by USCitizen

I wrote: "The economy went into recession because of the housing collapse which was tied to and caused the implosion of the financial markets"

Yawn.
Credit Suisse, G-S, JP Morgan, Wells-Fargo, etc, etc, etc were artificially upgrading failing Bonds and pushing stocks that had no underlying value.
The SEC knew this and didn't give a sh!t.

Which would not have happened if the government had not forced the banks to loan money to people who could not pay back those loans in its campaign for affordable housing.

Two DOJ agents have been fired by Obama for starting an investigation on G-S.

Yep, Obama doesn't want people to actually understand what happened or why it happened and would never allow his buddies on Wall Street have to testify under oath telling the court what happened or why it happened, since it would come back to the Dems in Congress and their efforts for affordable housing.

How many investment firms spent any of that commission money on auditors to make sure they weren't selling ghosts?
And if this above explanation is good enough to be given by Lou Dobbs then it's good enough for me.

Its really important to confirm what your teachers have taught you.

3% of a market doesn't crash a market and I'm fed up with hearing and seeing this bullsh!t sound-byte.

Our economy was driven into faux overdrive by bipartisan contributors and their lackey Reps.

Our economy was driven over the cliff by poor monetary policy and because of the actions of Fannie and Freddie and the Dems in Congress in their quest for affordable housing for those who could not afford their house payments.

As I wrote here:

Originally Posted by Mahasattva

The Factory of Selective Moral Outrage, by Victor Davis Hanson

"What did encouraged mortgage lending was the low interest rates set by the Fed. That by itself would not have been a problem, but it was a contributing factor which was made much worse by the efforts for affordable housing, the Community Reinvestment Act, the willful ignorance and ideology of Franks, Waters, and Dodd on the House Banking Committee, and the corruption at Freddie and Fannie. Check these out for a better understanding of why the housing bubble burst:
YouTube - ‪McCain's Early Recognition of Fannie/Freddie Crisis‬‏
YouTube - ‪Barney Frank in 2005: What Housing Bubble?‬‏
YouTube - ‪Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis‬‏
YouTube - ‪EVIDENCE FOUND!!! Clinton administration's "BANK AFFIRMATIVE ACTION" They forced banks to make BAD LOANS and ACORN and Obama's tie to all of it!!!‬‏
And especially: FORA.tv - Thomas Sowell: The Housing Boom and Bust

And for those who claim it was deregulation: it is such a canard, I WISH there had been more of it. YouTube - ‪Walter E Williams - Deregulation‬‏

Unlike Mike's convoluted claims about what caused the housing market collapse, the above links actually have a direct causal relationship to our market meltdown.

tashi deleks,

M

Originally Posted by Mahasattva

Insult man. That's a good one. And you wonder why I don’t take you seriously?



I know it is your habit to posts graphs and charts that do not support your claims and are irrelevant to the discussion, for example your unemployment graph below. You dismiss without rebuttal any data that does not agree with your already firmly held dogma.



Your article presents some data about the housing market, but nothing that contradicts what I wrote, nor any of the hard data that directly contradicts your standard rants about free trade or out sourcing or on this thread about increasing the tax rates on the rich. I laid it all out beginning with post #17 here The Factory of Selective Moral Outrage, by Victor Davis Hanson Not only will those who read that thread learn how baseless your claims are, they will see the standard tactics

Presenting graphs without any explanatory context and that have no causal connection to your claims does nothing except show your inability to engage in critical thinking.



Yep, that the unemployment rate since 1948. I know you wish to attribute our current unemployment rate to out sourcing and foreign trade, but that assertions is directly challenged by the fact that up until Obama took office the unemployment rate was at all time lows. Bush’s average was around 5.2% while Clinton’s was just a little higher. You have to go back to the Carter years to find unemployment rates as high as Obama’s.



Which is why it is stupid to attempt to compete in manufacturing that is low skilled and low wage and why our manufacturing base is more oriented toward high skilled high wage labor.


www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/ichcc_03082011.pdf

As I wrote here: “Industry that requires cheap labor has been outsourced, which has been a net benefit for both Americans and those countries which have been able to expand their own economies. There is no casual connection between the declining percentages of GDP contributed by the manufacturing sector and the housing market meltdown. We make more today then we have ever made.

The facts about U.S. manufacturing above are from: Forging A Second American Century - Forbes.com What really stands in the way of American manufacturing? To quote the article: “A 2008 study by National Association of Manufacturers affiliate organization The Manufacturing Institute and the Manufacturer's Alliance/MAPI compared the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. to a group of nine industrial nations including Germany, Japan, China and Mexico. Because of higher taxes, energy and regulatory costs, U.S. manufacturers face a 17.6% structural cost disadvantage when competing against firms from these nine countries. But progress is being made. The same group estimated that just two years earlier, in 2006, American firms faced a 31.7% structural cost disadvantage.”

What do all of the Democrat-Progressives call for on the left, what do all of the protectionists and isolationists call for on the right … higher taxes and greater regulations.”

Perhaps IF we removed the 17.6% (at least that’s what it was, with Obama it has probably gone back up) structural cost disadvantage government has saddled on manufacturing our hourly compensation levels would rise.

tashi deleks,

M[/QUOTE]

So you really believe that offshoring and outsoucing, which takes away living wage jobs, to be replaced by non living wage jobs has actually helped average Americans? What fucking Universe do you inhabit? It must be the one where the obvious does not exist.

If protectionism never worked, why in the hell have so many nations done it? And are doing it as we speak. China sure the hell is indulging. We don't and we are getting our lunch ate, that is, if you are a working American. This cheap offshored labor is enriching Communists and American corporations and hurting our own people. Only a Con would love that, and try to prove otherwise. Your beliefs are contrary to common sense.

In my Universe if you allow manufacturing to move the jobs that helped create the worlds largest middle class, the middle class loses what created it and substains it. Deceptively simple. Only a Con would believe otherwise. But you guys are dead ass wrong and just will never admit it. A problem of egos.

Originally Posted by michael h

I'd rather make $10 hr manufacturing ...

But why on Earth would an employer pay you even $10 an hour when he can ship the job offshore and pay a guy $10 for 40 hours worth of work?

Your labor is no better than the labor of a twelve-year-old Indian boy when it comes to standing on an assembly line pushing a button.

You know as well as I do that when you go to the store you look at price tags and assuming that all other factors are equal you'll buy the item with the lower price tag.

Why should industry be held to a different standard.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

As I wrote here: “Industry that requires cheap labor has been outsourced, which has been a net benefit for both Americans and those countries which have been able to expand their own economies. There is no casual connection between the declining percentages of GDP contributed by the manufacturing sector and the housing market meltdown. We make more today then we have ever made.

The facts about U.S. manufacturing above are from: Forging A Second American Century - Forbes.com What really stands in the way of American manufacturing? To quote the article: “A 2008 study by National Association of Manufacturers affiliate organization The Manufacturing Institute and the Manufacturer's Alliance/MAPI compared the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. to a group of nine industrial nations including Germany, Japan, China and Mexico. Because of higher taxes, energy and regulatory costs, U.S. manufacturers face a 17.6% structural cost disadvantage when competing against firms from these nine countries. But progress is being made. The same group estimated that just two years earlier, in 2006, American firms faced a 31.7% structural cost disadvantage.”

What do all of the Democrat-Progressives call for on the left, what do all of the protectionists and isolationists call for on the right … higher taxes and greater regulations.”

Perhaps IF we removed the 17.6% (at least that’s what it was, with Obama it has probably gone back up) structural cost disadvantage government has saddled on manufacturing our hourly compensation levels would rise.

So you really believe that offshoring and outsoucing, which takes away living wage jobs, to be replaced by non living wage jobs has actually helped average Americans?

:rolleyes: Unless you are employing zombies, no one on the planet has a non living wage job.

What fucking Universe do you inhabit? It must be the one where the obvious does not exist.

I “inhabit” the real world and determine what policies and programs to support based on empirical evidence rather than baseless fears or ideology. I don’t “inhabit” a Universe were zombies and vampires find regularly employment.

If protectionism never worked, why in the hell have so many nations done it? And are doing it as we speak.

Please show me the nation that engaged in protectionist policies to the betterment of their economy or the benefit of their citizens.

China sure the hell is indulging.

The degree that China indulges in protectionist measures today are a whole lot less than what they had indulged in prior to its shift to following capitalist principles. China is doing a lot better because they are not indulging in protectionism and have opened up to trade.

We don't and we are getting our lunch ate, that is, if you are a working American.

Rather American business is saddled with structural cost disadvantages because of the costs of complying with regulations, taxes, and higher energy costs.

This cheap offshored labor is enriching Communists and American corporations and hurting our own people.

As I have already showed on The Factory of Selective Moral Outrage, by Victor Davis Hanson thread that is patently false.

Only a Con would love that, and try to prove otherwise. Your beliefs are contrary to common sense.

My beliefs are based on and have been confirmed by empirical evidence.

In my Universe if you allow manufacturing to move the jobs that helped create the worlds largest middle class, the middle class loses what created it and substains it.

America is the leading manufacturer in the world and is the leading exporter of manufactured goods in the world. The decline in those employed in the manufacturing sector, which has been going on since the 50s, has nothing to do with out sourcing or off shoring and is a decline that is also seen in other countries including China.

Deceptively simple. Only a Con would believe otherwise. But you guys are dead ass wrong and just will never admit it. A problem of egos.

:rolleyes: What is simple is that you don’t know what your talking about and are unwilling to do the required research to alleviate yourself of your ignorance in economics or history and are much more invested in protecting your ideological beliefs.

tashi deleks,

M

Originally Posted by michael h

The unemployed don't earn anything. Nor do they pay taxes unless its from unemployment checks. Relevance is to those who no longer earn ...

And that what to to with the topic?

Originally Posted by jviehe

And that what to to with the topic?

taxation.

Originally Posted by soot

But why on Earth would an employer pay you even $10 an hour when he can ship the job offshore and pay a guy $10 for 40 hours worth of work?

Your labor is no better than the labor of a twelve-year-old Indian boy when it comes to standing on an assembly line pushing a button.

You know as well as I do that when you go to the store you look at price tags and assuming that all other factors are equal you'll buy the item with the lower price tag.

Why should industry be held to a different standard.

Soot I've bought foreign cars after I realized American corporations don't give a shit. If you look in my yard you will see a Scion ... the ugliest car in the history of mankind. I can get several bails of hay in it if I get low and I can also fit lumber in it to. You will also find an American made car ... but both cars get good mileage.
I don't always buy the cheapest item. I think of community. Local insurance, using local businesses.
Here is am example when I didn't. I wanted a Protege ... went to the dealer ... said the sale is yours meet me halfway between cost and MSRP. If you don't I'm out the door, if you do the I'll take the car today. They made me an offer above MSRP. I walked out made a phone call to Quincy Mass asked the price ... they quoted a protege and the 626. I said I'm driving to Mass have it ready tonight so I can drive it home. I got the 626 (after closing hours) for less then the Protege. The next day my car dealer in Maine called to say they could work out the Protege ... thx I already have a car.

I support local business its my community ... I'm not perfect I do look for bargains ... like my chinese made wheelbarrow.

BTW manufacturing is not just pushing a button.

Originally Posted by Mahasattva

Insult man. That's a good one. And you wonder why I don’t take you seriously?



I know it is your habit to posts graphs and charts that do not support your claims and are irrelevant to the discussion, for example your unemployment graph below. You dismiss without rebuttal any data that does not agree with your already firmly held dogma.



Your article presents some data about the housing market, but nothing that contradicts what I wrote, nor any of the hard data that directly contradicts your standard rants about free trade or out sourcing or on this thread about increasing the tax rates on the rich. I laid it all out beginning with post #17 here The Factory of Selective Moral Outrage, by Victor Davis Hanson Not only will those who read that thread learn how baseless your claims are, they will see the standard tactics

Presenting graphs without any explanatory context and that have no causal connection to your claims does nothing except show your inability to engage in critical thinking.



Yep, that the unemployment rate since 1948. I know you wish to attribute our current unemployment rate to out sourcing and foreign trade, but that assertions is directly challenged by the fact that up until Obama took office the unemployment rate was at all time lows. Bush’s average was around 5.2% while Clinton’s was just a little higher. You have to go back to the Carter years to find unemployment rates as high as Obama’s.



Which is why it is stupid to attempt to compete in manufacturing that is low skilled and low wage and why our manufacturing base is more oriented toward high skilled high wage labor.


www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/ichcc_03082011.pdf

As I wrote here: “Industry that requires cheap labor has been outsourced, which has been a net benefit for both Americans and those countries which have been able to expand their own economies. There is no casual connection between the declining percentages of GDP contributed by the manufacturing sector and the housing market meltdown. We make more today then we have ever made.

The facts about U.S. manufacturing above are from: Forging A Second American Century - Forbes.com What really stands in the way of American manufacturing? To quote the article: “A 2008 study by National Association of Manufacturers affiliate organization The Manufacturing Institute and the Manufacturer's Alliance/MAPI compared the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. to a group of nine industrial nations including Germany, Japan, China and Mexico. Because of higher taxes, energy and regulatory costs, U.S. manufacturers face a 17.6% structural cost disadvantage when competing against firms from these nine countries. But progress is being made. The same group estimated that just two years earlier, in 2006, American firms faced a 31.7% structural cost disadvantage.”

What do all of the Democrat-Progressives call for on the left, what do all of the protectionists and isolationists call for on the right … higher taxes and greater regulations.”

Perhaps IF we removed the 17.6% (at least that’s what it was, with Obama it has probably gone back up) structural cost disadvantage government has saddled on manufacturing our hourly compensation levels would rise.

tashi deleks,

M[/QUOTE]

When you post data from a right wing book I don't have to buy ... I'll take you seriously. That was the point of showing you charts and data with sources.

Originally Posted by michael h

BTW manufacturing is not just pushing a button.

I realize that.

But you know what I mean.

Cars are one thing because you really can compare differences in quality and they're pretty complex machines which do require skill to manufacture.

But I was thinking more along other lines.

At the time I'd posted my previous comment I was eating yogurt out of a plastic cup with a plastic spoon.

How much real skill is required to work on an assmbly line making the plastic cups that Dannon yogurt comes in, or the plastic spoons I steal from our cafeteria here at work?

Probably not a heck of a lot.

I'm sure that there's probably some small learning curve for a new employee but I'm also sure that you don't even need a high school education to stand at the end of an assembly line, pull finished spoons out of the hopper, and throw them in the cardboard box that you've placed on a scale.

I've watched enough episodes of "How it's Made" to know that, for the large part, assembly line manufacture of every-day non durable goods isn't rocket surgery.

See a Thomas Sowell charts do exist. Not quite sure about his causation as always. Our super rich have benefited from exporting manufacturing jobs and the ensuing trade deficit / housing bubble hurt all but the super rich. Disproportionate harm is probably due to the types of jobs lost.

Assigning blame to the Barney Franks of the world instead of current accounts/trade deficits ignores bubble causation. With the US and PIIGS all suffering at the hands of trade deficits ... Mr. Sowell misses causation.

Since the wealthy get lower taxes it quite simple that proportion of damage between whites and minorities would increase.

GOVERNMENT POLICY DESTROYED BLACK NET WORTH The Burning Platform

Originally Posted by michael h

As I wrote here: “Industry that requires cheap labor has been outsourced, which has been a net benefit for both Americans and those countries which have been able to expand their own economies. There is no casual connection between the declining percentages of GDP contributed by the manufacturing sector and the housing market meltdown. We make more today then we have ever made.

The facts about U.S. manufacturing above are from: Forging A Second American Century - Forbes.com What really stands in the way of American manufacturing? To quote the article: “A 2008 study by National Association of Manufacturers affiliate organization The Manufacturing Institute and the Manufacturer's Alliance/MAPI compared the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. to a group of nine industrial nations including Germany, Japan, China and Mexico. Because of higher taxes, energy and regulatory costs, U.S. manufacturers face a 17.6% structural cost disadvantage when competing against firms from these nine countries. But progress is being made. The same group estimated that just two years earlier, in 2006, American firms faced a 31.7% structural cost disadvantage.”

What do all of the Democrat-Progressives call for on the left, what do all of the protectionists and isolationists call for on the right … higher taxes and greater regulations.”

Perhaps IF we removed the 17.6% (at least that’s what it was, with Obama it has probably gone back up) structural cost disadvantage government has saddled on manufacturing our hourly compensation levels would rise.

When you post data from a right wing book I don't have to buy ... I'll take you seriously. That was the point of showing you charts and data with sources.

Ah, Forging A Second American Century - Forbes.com is not from a right wing book. To read the article in full you don't have to pay anything. Your charts do not support your claims nor prove your delusions.

You present data and attribute to it things that are not supported by the data, like your unemployment graph. It proves nothing you have asserted.

Anything that does not agree with your interpretation you reject without addressing or rebutting with any kind of substantive argument.

tashi deleks,

M

Originally Posted by soot

I realize that.

But you know what I mean.

Cars are one thing because you really can compare differences in quality and they're pretty complex machines which do require skill to manufacture.

But I was thinking more along other lines.

At the time I'd posted my previous comment I was eating yogurt out of a plastic cup with a plastic spoon.

How much real skill is required to work on an assmbly line making the plastic cups that Dannon yogurt comes in, or the plastic spoons I steal from our cafeteria here at work?

Probably not a heck of a lot.

I'm sure that there's probably some small learning curve for a new employee but I'm also sure that you don't even need a high school education to stand at the end of an assembly line, pull finished spoons out of the hopper, and throw them in the cardboard box that you've placed on a scale.

I've watched enough episodes of "How it's Made" to know that, for the large part, assembly line manufacture of every-day non durable goods isn't rocket surgery.

I forget the location ... I think it was Alabama , not sure , anyway they opened a chopstick making factory. People happy to be working. Even in more high tech manufacturing facilities it can be tedious at times and many processes are pretty much push button. Its not for everyone ... I watched many coworkers walk out the door because it got tedious. Sometimes it can be rocket science dependent upon the manufacturing facility ... and these opportunities are more pleasurable.

The chopstick thing though ... its role reversal ... we make the toys now ... China makes the good stuff.