Thread: Stop Coddling the super Rich

Originally Posted by 9aces

Well there's just one problem with those models aren't there?

Most really don't consider how chaotic everyone working toward their own ends is.

So true.

Here is one of the grand ideas always being thrown around ... low wage jobs. Kind of a mixed bag. You work for less but your working. Just like the chopstick factory in the town with high unemployment ... happy to have a job because all the good jobs were exported.

Such are the benefits of exporting your economy.

Robert Reich: How to Create More Jobs By Lowering Wages: Texas and America

According to a report out today from the Commerce Department, the median income of U.S. households fell 2.3 percent last year -- to the lowest level in fifteen years (adjusted for inflation). That's the third straight year of declining household incomes. Part of this is loss of jobs. Part is loss of earnings.

More and more Americans are retaining their jobs by settling for lower wages and benefits, or going without cost-of-living increases. Or they've lost a higher-paying job and have taken one that pays less. Or they've joined the great army of contingent workers, self-employed "consultants," temps, and contract workers -- without healthcare benefits, without pensions, without job security, without decent wages.

I keep on hearing conservative economists say Americans have priced themselves out of the global high-tech labor market. That's baloney. The productivity of American workers continues to soar. The problem is fewer and fewer Americans are sharing the gains. The ratio of corporate profits to wages is the highest it's been since before the Great Depression.

Besides, how can lower incomes possibly be an answer to America's economic problem? Lower incomes mean less overall demand for goods and services -- which translates into even fewer jobs and even lower wages.

Originally Posted by michael h

Here is one of the grand ideas always being thrown around ... low wage jobs. Kind of a mixed bag. You work for less but your working. Just like the chopstick factory in the town with high unemployment ... happy to have a job because all the good jobs were exported.

Such are the benefits of exporting your economy.

Robert Reich: How to Create More Jobs By Lowering Wages: Texas and America

Wage level always has been and always will be a reflection of replaceability.

We had a glut of employees come up during the tech bubble that specialized in marketing, coding and electrical engineering. As that industry was impacted by the Chinese and Indians those jobs went away and the replaceability of those people increased. The same thing happened with contractors during the housing bubble. We have overproduced and overspecialized based on adapting to economic bubbles and were bound to see this effect when those bubbles burst.

The trick to fixing this problem is to produce employees who are more capable along a more broad spectrum of expertise AND who have an ownership mentality rather than a dependence mentality. If you set yourself up so that your lot in life will be dictated by competence only in specialty "A" then specialty "A" better be something that isn't going to change in your lifetime. Likewise, we need to produce people who understand that their value is directly related to what they can do for someone else rather than what that someone else can do for them. We need to produce innovators.

Originally Posted by lutherf

Wage level always has been and always will be a reflection of replaceability.

We had a glut of employees come up during the tech bubble that specialized in marketing, coding and electrical engineering. As that industry was impacted by the Chinese and Indians those jobs went away and the replaceability of those people increased. The same thing happened with contractors during the housing bubble. We have overproduced and overspecialized based on adapting to economic bubbles and were bound to see this effect when those bubbles burst.

The trick to fixing this problem is to produce employees who are more capable along a more broad spectrum of expertise AND who have an ownership mentality rather than a dependence mentality. If you set yourself up so that your lot in life will be dictated by competence only in specialty "A" then specialty "A" better be something that isn't going to change in your lifetime. Likewise, we need to produce people who understand that their value is directly related to what they can do for someone else rather than what that someone else can do for them. We need to produce innovators.

Much of what you say I agree with. However continuous exporting of the economy leaves the country with high unemployment no matter the specialization. As an ongoing process rather then a function of a bubble, jobs must be continually "created" to replace exports and visa insourcing. Innovation of legislation has allowed jobs in the country to be taken by foreigners. Based upon that rationality with control over visas ... whose job couldn't be replaced?

It's going to take a lot of innovation, ownership mentalities, and multi-skilled Americans to replace the jobs we continually export. Create a hundred ... export a hundred. Create a hundred import a hundred green cards.

Originally Posted by lutherf

We have overproduced and overspecialized based on adapting to economic bubbles and were bound to see this effect when those bubbles burst.

The trick to fixing this problem is to produce employees who are more capable along a more broad spectrum of expertise AND who have an ownership mentality rather than a dependence mentality.

Such a strawman argument.
So Luther, when's the last time you met an owner who was willing to hire a "generalist" besides a "gopher"?
Directors and CEOs WANT SPECIFIC skills; they DEMAND specific skills.
And these are the SAME skills they have been DEMANDING since post-2001.
And the only people who can survive on the wages offered for these skills are FOREIGNERS.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

Such a strawman argument.
So Luther, when's the last time you met an owner who was willing to hire a "generalist" besides a "gopher"?
Directors and CEOs WANT SPECIFIC skills; they DEMAND specific skills.
And these are the SAME skills they have been DEMANDING since post-2001.
And the only people who can survive on the wages offered for these skills are FOREIGNERS.

Finding someone with a specific ability is easy. Finding someone who can switch between related tasks is much more difficult.

I ran a furniture store in Las Vegas for a number of years. I was always looking for people to work the warehouse. The primary responsibility was to carry heavy stuff and make sure that the right stuff was pulled for the orders.

That was pretty easy to find.

Other aspects of the job involved being able to properly account for inventory, predict what was going to be needed in the coming week and make sure that it was accessible, make room for new shipments, do minor repairs, etc. That was A LOT harder to find. The people who could handle all of the above got paid a premium while the others languished.

I was willing to pay that premium because those people made my job easier and allowed me to focus on selling product. The big difference between the two groups was that the more capable ones had the mindset that they "owned" the warehouse and were responsible for it. The other group seemed to focus on what time they got off work and when payday was.

Originally Posted by lutherf

Finding someone with a specific ability is easy. Finding someone who can switch between related tasks is much more difficult.

I ran a furniture store in Las Vegas for a number of years. I was always looking for people to work the warehouse. The primary responsibility was to carry heavy stuff and make sure that the right stuff was pulled for the orders.

That was pretty easy to find.

Other aspects of the job involved being able to properly account for inventory, predict what was going to be needed in the coming week and make sure that it was accessible, make room for new shipments, do minor repairs, etc. That was A LOT harder to find. The people who could handle all of the above got paid a premium while the others languished.

I was willing to pay that premium because those people made my job easier and allowed me to focus on selling product. The big difference between the two groups was that the more capable ones had the mindset that they "owned" the warehouse and were responsible for it. The other group seemed to focus on what time they got off work and when payday was.

What you describe is pretty much my experience for such an environment. Cross training is provided for those who are interested or pick it up through observation. So a grinder, may laser, furnace, plasma spray, or any number of other functions which improve flexibility of operations.

Originally Posted by michael h

What you describe is pretty much my experience for such an environment. Cross training is provided for those who are interested or pick it up through observation. So a grinder, may laser, furnace, plasma spray, or any number of other functions which improve flexibility of operations.

That's it in a nutshell. Beyond that, those who are more interested and more flexible also tend to be the ones that bring new ideas to the table. They were the ones who would come running up to me with some new gadget they made or I'd walk in to find the whole warehouse rearranged for better efficiency.

The ideas didn't always pan out in practice but as a general rule those guys never had to worry about being outsourced.

Originally Posted by lutherf

I was willing to pay that premium

Just curious as to what dollar amount you consider a premium.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

Just curious as to what dollar amount you consider a premium.

That was the mid 90's. Simply lumping loads paid $7.50/hr. Repairs paid a percentage of resale. Supervising in the warehouse paid $10/hr+bonuses and the warehouse manager was paid $20/hr+bonuses. Supervisors and the manager also got the opportunity to go to various educational forums which, while still "work", involved about equal amounts of training and hanging out by the pool.

Originally Posted by lutherf

That was the mid 90's. Simply lumping loads paid $7.50/hr. Repairs paid a percentage of resale. Supervising in the warehouse paid $10/hr+bonuses and the warehouse manager was paid $20/hr+bonuses. Supervisors and the manager also got the opportunity to go to various educational forums which, while still "work", involved about equal amounts of training and hanging out by the pool.

Did most of these people graduate high school?

Originally Posted by USCitizen

Did most of these people graduate high school?

If I remember correctly everyone I hired had at least a High School education. There may have been one who was still in school and I know that a couple of them were in college. It would stand to reason that some only had a GED but I don't recall that as having a significant impact on whether they took to job ownership or not.

Originally Posted by lutherf

If I remember correctly everyone I hired had at least a High School education. There may have been one who was still in school and I know that a couple of them were in college. It would stand to reason that some only had a GED but I don't recall that as having a significant impact on whether they took to job ownership or not.

I trying to think back to when I started working in 1981.
I started at 19K which was actually a pretty comfortable salary.
In fact, I remember most of friends buying nice homes in the $170K area.
Ah, the good old days before Reagan Supply Side Economics.