Thread: Free Trade vs Protectionism

Originally Posted by machinehead61

Speaking of no clue....

WallBuilders - Historical Writings - Importance of Morality and Religion in Government

Have your first lesson in the foundation of our government.

Steve

Did you read your own link? I'm going to guess not

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Morality and religion are not welcome in government these days are they?

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

Hmm, that sounds familiar. Seems like someone's been saying something along those lines...oh yes, was me.

There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy.

That sounds familiar too.

[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.

Did you miss that tidbit too? Apparently.

[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

Did I link that comment? Yup....sure did.

Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains rather than do an immoral act. And never suppose that in any possible situation, or under any circumstances, it is best for you to do a dishonorable thing, however slightly so it may appear to you. Whenever you are to do a thing, though it can never be known but to yourself, ask yourself how you would act were all the world looking at you, and act accordingly. Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises, being assured that they will gain strength by exercise, as a limb of the body does, and that exercise will make them habitual. From the practice of the purest virtue, you may be assured you will derive the most sublime comforts in every moment of life, and in the moment of death.

That sounds a whole lot like "exercise personal responsibility".

It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people.

Can you order people to be virtuous? Legislate them to be? No you can't.

To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.

Mr. Morse certainly wouldn't be a popular fellow today would he?

We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.

Benjamin Rush wouldn't either.

Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.

I'm going to guess you didn't actually read any of the words written in that link.

Originally Posted by 9aces

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Morality and religion are not welcome in government these days are they?

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

Powerful, powerful words. Outstanding post!!!

Originally Posted by JohnLocke

Powerful, powerful words. Outstanding post!!!

John Adams spoke pretty well at times didn't he?

Originally Posted by 9aces

Looking in a mirror when you say that?

No buddy, absolutely looking at you.

Originally Posted by 9aces

So they got rid of some of their slaves? Did the term "coffin ships" not give you a clue?

There you go. Your complete lack of reasoning at its best. "Slaves" are purchased and represent an expensive investment that owners would hardly spend further money to dispose of. They'd sell them first.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Actually your mentality created it. They set overlords over the populace, and backed them with the government, who killed them when they protested.

The coming of Cambro-Norman mercenaries under Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke, nicknamed Strongbow, in 1169 marked the beginning of more than 700 years of direct English, and, later, British involvement in Ireland. In 1177, Prince John Lackland was made Lord of Ireland by his father Henry II of England at the Council of Oxford.[3] The Crown did not attempt to assert full control of the island until after Henry VIII's repudiation of papal authority over the Church in England and subsequent English Reformation, which failed in Ireland. Questions over the loyalty of Irish vassals provided the initial impetus for a series of Irish military campaigns between 1534 and 1691. This period was marked by a Crown policy of plantation, involving the arrival of thousands of English and Scottish Protestant settlers, and the consequent displacement of the pre-plantation Catholic landholders. As the military and political defeat of Gaelic Ireland became more pronounced in the early seventeenth century, the role of religion as a new divisive element in Ireland became more pronounced. From this period on, sectarian conflict became a recurrent theme in Irish history.

The 1613 overthrow of the Catholic majority in the Irish Parliament was realised principally through the creation of numerous new boroughs which were dominated by the new settlers. By the end of the seventeenth century, recusant Roman Catholics, as adherents to the old religion were now termed, representing some 85% of Ireland's population, were then banned from the Irish Parliament. Political power rested entirely in the hands of an Anglican minority, while Catholics and members of dissenting Protestant denominations suffered severe political and economic privations at the hands of the Penal Laws. The Irish Parliament was abolished in 1801 in the wake of the republican United Irishmen Rebellion and Ireland became an integral part of a new United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland under the Act of Union. Although promised a repeal of the Test Act, Catholics were not granted full rights until Catholic Emancipation was attained throughout the new UK in 1829. This was followed by the first Reform Bill in 1832, a principal condition of which was the removal of the poorer British and Irish freeholders from the franchise.

This is your selfish - I only care about myself - mentallity giving birth to its natural child - oppression of others for your selfish gain. The child you refuse to claim but is genetically all yours. Greed kills. Using government to achieve those ends is your child - not mine. "Love thy neighbor as thy self" never meant building fortunes off the conquered land of peasants. That greed is absolutely your creation which capitalism refined through Imperialism.

Originally Posted by 9aces

You've never actually been to Africa have you? What you see there is African government writ large. They've been taught that the role of a leader is to steal and kill. They've learned their lessons fairly well haven't they? What you have there, is many competing governments trying to be the biggest thief.

Sounds like the American Indian without any Europeans helping...

Chief Pontiac (1720 - April 20, 1769) was a great leader of the Ottawa Indian tribe. He organized his and other tribes in the Great Lakes area to fight the British, in what is known as Pontiac's War (1763-1764)...

Pontiac agreed to a peace treaty in July 1766 at Fort de Chartres, Illinois. He was murdered by a Peoria Indian three years later. To avenge Pontiac's death, the Ottawa Indians killed many Peoria Indians.

As for Somalia...

The international aid group Médecins Sans Frontières stated that the level of daily violence during this period was "catastrophic". A statistic from 2000 indicated that only 21% of the population had access to safe drinking water at that time, and Somalia had one of the highest child mortality rates in the world with 10% of children dying at birth and 25% of those surviving birth dying before age five. Additionally, "adult literacy is estimated to have declined from the already low level of 24% in 1989 to 17.1% in 2001." A more recent 2003 study reported that the literacy rate was 19%. The impact on human development in Somalia of governmental collapse and ensuing civil war was profound, leading to the breakdown of political institutions, the destruction of social and economic infrastructure and massive internal and external migrations.

Originally Posted by 9aces

You have no interest in learning the difference between selfish, and self-interested. You are absolutely correct when anyone tries to take what is mine by force, they are answered by force.

You have no interest in learning about the consequences of your ideology.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Yes they did what what they felt was in their interest. What you have is the absence of consequence of their actions. Why? Because government set them in power over their fellow men, and protected that status with laws and bullets.

Because the government followed a Lassaiz faire free market approach to a famine and the free market reacted exactly as you wanted it to. Self interest before caring about your neighbor. And at least a million Irish starved to death when a natural fungus created a natural disaster that the government refused to intervene in.

Originally Posted by 9aces

You don't understand what my values are. You've demonstrated an extreme lack of ignorance in the motivations of the Individualists on this board.

You've demonstrated the supreme ignorance of what I stand for. I understand all too well what you stand for. The ancient selfish interest that dates back to biblical times when Cain murdered Abel and the Christian religion has struggled to overcome.

Originally Posted by 9aces

And yet my value system is not based on corruption, or wielding power over other men. Yours is, and is designed to promote the most corrupt.

Yours is based upon selfish gain and always leads to corruption and oppression of the very worst forms.

Originally Posted by 9aces

No it means I expect you to care about yours, not have me care about it for you since you are unwilling.

But your kind eventually won't be happy unless yours is protected to the detriment of all others.

Originally Posted by 9aces

There are few if any like me in government. Values and principles are not welcome in government service.

Your kind fills the halls of government. Selfish individuals fighting for political power to get your way is as old as humanity.

Originally Posted by 9aces

You don't know what corruption is. You demonstrate that every time you post.

I see corruption in your ideology. It is the fertile soil that gives birth to corruption.

Originally Posted by 9aces

You say you love life, yet are terrified of the thought of people not needing a government to tell them to respect the rights of others, and expect they do the same. You perceive life the way a spoon perceives the taste of food.

I'm just a student of history. You are a dogmatist who refuses to learn from history.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Was here first. Guess you missed that.

Chief Pontiac didn't miss being murdered - did he ?

Steve

Originally Posted by 9aces

Did you read your own link? I'm going to guess not

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Morality and religion are not welcome in government these days are they?.....

I'm going to guess you didn't actually read any of the words written in that link.

I absolutely did read them. And another document that you didn't.

What morality and religion are the Founding Fathers refering to?

This is the supreme hypocrisy of the conservative right.

They only use the words of the Founding Fathers that is convenient to their selfish ways and then dispose of the entire foundation behind those words.

"[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion..."

What "morality and religion" ?

Your "morality and religion" of selfish self interest?

Your "morality and religion" of I've got mine - too bad about yours?

What you, JohnLocke, Mahasattva and all the rest of the morally bankrupt conservatives throw out with supreme indifference is......

.....the "morality and religion" of the Bible......

If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? (NIV, 1 John 3:17)

People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. (NIV, 1 Timothy 6:9-11)

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (NIV, Matthew 16:26)

Luke 16:19-31

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. (NIV, 1 Timothy 6:17-19)

The LORD abhors dishonest scales, but accurate weights are his delight. (NIV, Proverbs 11:1)

When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not strip your vineyard bare, or gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the alien: I am the LORD your God. (NRSV, Leviticus 19:9-10)

He who despises his neighbor sins, but happy is he who is gracious to the poor. (NAS, Proverbs 14:21)

"Feed the hungry! Help those in trouble! Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you shall be as bright as day. And the Lord will guide you continually, and satisfy you with all good things, and keep you healthy too; and you will be like a well-watered garden, like an ever-flowing spring. (TLB, Isaiah 58:10-11)

And the crowds asked [John the Baptist], "What then should we do?" In reply he said to them, "Whoever has two coats must share with anyone who has none; and whoever has food must do likewise." (NRSV, Luke 3:10-11)

This is what the conservative doesn't want to hear and throws it out while praising greed and selfishness.

And this is the freedom that they will never understand...

"I will walk in freedom,for I have devoted myself to your commandments."
Psalm 119:45 (NLT)

Freedom begins with submission of your selfish will to God and replacing it with HIS WILL - NOT YOURS.

And HIS WILL does not include turning your back on your fellow man while you pursue your own selfish enrichment.

Steve

Originally Posted by 9aces

Did you read your own link? I'm going to guess not

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Morality and religion are not welcome in government these days are they?

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

Hmm, that sounds familiar. Seems like someone's been saying something along those lines...oh yes, was me.

There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy.

That sounds familiar too.

[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.

Did you miss that tidbit too? Apparently.

[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

Did I link that comment? Yup....sure did.

Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains rather than do an immoral act. And never suppose that in any possible situation, or under any circumstances, it is best for you to do a dishonorable thing, however slightly so it may appear to you. Whenever you are to do a thing, though it can never be known but to yourself, ask yourself how you would act were all the world looking at you, and act accordingly. Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises, being assured that they will gain strength by exercise, as a limb of the body does, and that exercise will make them habitual. From the practice of the purest virtue, you may be assured you will derive the most sublime comforts in every moment of life, and in the moment of death.

That sounds a whole lot like "exercise personal responsibility".

It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people.

Can you order people to be virtuous? Legislate them to be? No you can't.

To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.

Mr. Morse certainly wouldn't be a popular fellow today would he?

We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.

Benjamin Rush wouldn't either.

Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.

I'm going to guess you didn't actually read any of the words written in that link.

Quite honestly, the I believe the majority of people are God fearing and honest and mostly the scummiest become successful politicans and businessmen.

The Pubs and Dems are who tout God all belong to the FOS Party and as far as I'm concerned that "Member of the Tribe Eric Cantor" is one of the fakest of them all.

Here is the perfect reply to 9aces and JohnLocke and their fictional comic book belief that all men can have the same understanding of property rights...

The Avalon Project : The Federalist Papers No. 10

As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other; and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and views of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties.

The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts. But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society. Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government...

And here was the topic that would burn into the Civil War....

Shall domestic manufactures be encouraged, and in what degree, by restrictions on foreign manufactures? are questions which would be differently decided by the landed and the manufacturing classes, and probably by neither with a sole regard to justice and the public good.

And this is why government is a necessity....

The inference to which we are brought is, that the CAUSES of faction cannot be removed, and that relief is only to be sought in the means of controlling its EFFECTS.

Steve

Originally Posted by skeptic1

The above rings true but since we allow the same corporate interests unfettered right to collect and spend money to elect those who will do their bidding there is not much more than a shadow of a hope of affecting change.

But the world is changing. Corporate money is in danger of losing its hold on the government. Political discussion boards like these have the power connect likeminded people, as does social media like Facebook. The Arab spring was an example of that power. What we need to do is quit being cynical and find was to use this technology to involve people in our democracy, to find a way to take back our government and make it serve the people.

Originally Posted by teaser47401

But the world is changing. Corporate money is in danger of losing its hold on the government. Political discussion boards like these have the power connect likeminded people, as does social media like Facebook. The Arab spring was an example of that power. What we need to do is quit being cynical and find was to use this technology to involve people in our democracy, to find a way to take back our government and make it serve the people.

Try this at the next social event you attend...
Try to find ONE person other than yourself who is involved on a continual basis on even one forum.
Good luck!

Originally Posted by machinehead61

What morality and religion are the Founding Fathers refering to?

Only someone engaged in willful misunderstanding could ask such a question. It is a fact of history that John Locke was the single most referred to source of inspiration when contemplating an American Constitution - other than the Holy Bible. The FF referred to the Bible more than ANY other source in contemplating a social compact.

Originally Posted by machinehead61

What you, JohnLocke, Mahasattva and all the rest of the morally bankrupt conservatives throw out with supreme indifference is......

.....the "morality and religion" of the Bible......

What you fail to recognize in your willful misunderstanding is the Bible applies to indviduals and this is why Leftists hate Chrisitianity - it rejects collectivism.

Originally Posted by machinehead61

Freedom begins with submission of your selfish will to God and replacing it with HIS WILL - NOT YOURS.

You know that God is not a euphamism for government, right?

Originally Posted by JohnLocke

You know that God is not a euphamism for government, right?

And we all know that God's top priorities don't include greed, avarice and everybody else can go to hell.
But neither does God endorse welfare for the lazy.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

Try this at the next social event you attend...
Try to find ONE person other than yourself who is involved on a continual basis on even one forum.
Good luck!

The revolutionary potential of the technology we are using is that citizens can be ideologically connected without having to be geographically connected.