Thread: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

And sir, in this we can finally agree! Honest people will always have some things in common.

I feel that any economic system, should be just that a system. A system with the end goal being making a nation prosper. Not everybody grab what he can, in anyway that he can. Which is what we have today. And each nation then first looks out for themselves, yet willing to help others in their efforts as best we can.

I think capitalism has proven to be the most efficient way, and it can provide some level of prosperity for all that will work hard. But not the flavor of capitalism that we have today. This flavor is destructive. Destructive because it is driven by hype greed. One cannot get rid of this greed, all that one can do is to structure the system to where this greed is not allowed to destroy as it runs towards its goals.

As I said, wealth is not the problem. A capitalistic system has to have wealth, a few at the top, who were good, lucky, or both. It is the degree of wealth that is the problem. Because it is simple 5th grade arithmetic. If you concentrate most of the wealth in the top, and wealth is not infinite, this means there is less wealth to be distributed, by work, to the rest of america. And I believe that stopping wealth from going upwards, does not happen naturally. In fact, far from it. Hence there has to be rules in place, to stop this. Intelligence could formulate those rules.

We manage everything in our lives, everything! Yet if you want to manage, not over manage, but just the most efficient managment obtainable, this is an aversion to conservatives, who basically believe, or so is my perception, that just turn people loose to make as much money as they can, and somehow from this chaos, a better society, a more humane, and equitable society will arise. It's complete lunacy sir! If you turn human nature loose, the lust, the greed, the selfishness to run amok, it always brings two classes. A few rich and a helluva lot of poor. This is our history! Mankind's history! How can we deny it?

No, we need at some point to allow intelligence to work and put the ideology aside in the best interest of humanity. I have great hopes we will mentally evolve, because there has been no evolution in our brains since we first became self aware. If we do not discover intelligence we are doomed to these cycles, the rise, the fall, the chaos, the disorder, the death, then the rise again, the fall......into eternity.

I think at issue is, what do we accept as intelligence? How can it be applied? And when is a corporation/business ever doing its job if it is not to satisfy the bottom line? Are we saying that we must somehow "control" business to drive it to being socially conscious of social good?

As human beings we have a duty to make the playing field as level as possible, not just for the 1/3 of a billion of our citizens, but rather for all humans, each of whom who is morally equal to every other. If pushing the corporate interest into doing the most morally conscious good, shouldn't every human be considered as deserving of that moral conscious good as every other?

W,

[1] Projects on certain sites, such a ebid, are stating they will pay $3.00/hour.
It's on the web, I don't need to make it up.

[2] I am a part-time civil service worker and those are my hours and pay.
My resume, as I have stated, with my American name and as a software developer, has received no response since 2006.
I have friends in town who hire only H1-Bs who will pay my mortgage and utility bills via the Rabbi but do want to me to work alongside their slaves.

Since I am spearheading major development I am hoping to be hired full-time.
Full-time in Nassau County has nothing to do with skill-level; it is the Lucky Sperm Club, but I have people here who I never dumped for illegals so they are pushing hard for me.

Getting this job meant someone else's relative lost out.

How many software developers do you have in your shop in the mid-40s and above?

Originally Posted by Wlessard

Nothing like only using the part of the definition to suit your agenda.

Productivity (economics) definition of Productivity (economics) in the Free Online Encyclopedia.

For those who understand paragraphs I am only using the opening sentence from the definition.



As most paragraphs go on to support the initial supposition or assertion in the first sentence I place only that and you can read the rest on the page.

Wages are not the sole criteria for what is required to produce a product. Time, energy such as the electricity to run the factory, maybe the gas for heating, the support costs of the IT infrastructure such as you programing the system that runs the assembly line or the Tech that has to fix the computers. The cost of having a line mechanic available to fix the line when it goes down physically. Etc etc etc. Wages are not the be all and end all of the cost of productivity.

Your Sean Hannity replies are falling on deaf ears.
I know economics terms and I know the nomenclature is separate and apart from other professions.
And I know technicians make peanuts and live with their parents.

Hardware guys are literally a dime a dozens and anybody can become an administrator in a few weeks by taking an expensive course.
If you're doing alright, good for you, but it is far from being a tax accountant who can look at a 100 different scenarios and assimilate years of learning accumulated with current tax law and get you the best bracket.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

As long as it wasn't our half.
Historically, war &/or disease has always been the solution.
The problem this time around is that our military equipment is made by other nations but we still have control of the dsn database.

So millions are murdered so you are not inconvenienced. Nice morality you have there.

Originally Posted by 9aces

So millions are murdered so you are not inconvenienced. Nice morality you have there.

They were murdered due to Hitler and Stalin reacting to 1,000 years of The Roman Empire (Thinkers) and Divinely appointed Kings (Thinkers) who spat on everybody who wasn't a Thinker.
Not to shabby a price to pay when all the Kings were getting all the housing, food and chicks and the Pope (Thinker) was surrounded by adoring Cardinals (Thinkers) and Bishops (Thinkers) and his army (Labores).
Yep, that worked out real well in the early 20th century didn't it.

I don't see events as frozen in time.
There is cause and effect and after a while the masses get pissed and kill the Thinkers and the Thinkers Laborers.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

W,

[1] Projects on certain sites, such a ebid, are stating they will pay $3.00/hour.
It's on the web, I don't need to make it up.

[2] I am a part-time civil service worker and those are my hours and pay.
My resume, as I have stated, with my American name and as a software developer, has received no response since 2006.
I have friends in town who hire only H1-Bs who will pay my mortgage and utility bills via the Rabbi but do want to me to work alongside their slaves.

Since I am spearheading major development I am hoping to be hired full-time.
Full-time in Nassau County has nothing to do with skill-level; it is the Lucky Sperm Club, but I have people here who I never dumped for illegals so they are pushing hard for me.

Getting this job meant someone else's relative lost out.

How many software developers do you have in your shop in the mid-40s and above?

If I were an interviewer and sensed only a small part of your victim hood attitude the interview would be cut short. I doubt you will ever get much of a job until you start to get a little more positive about things in your life.

Originally Posted by dnsmith

I think at issue is, what do we accept as intelligence? How can it be applied? And when is a corporation/business ever doing its job if it is not to satisfy the bottom line? Are we saying that we must somehow "control" business to drive it to being socially conscious of social good?

As human beings we have a duty to make the playing field as level as possible, not just for the 1/3 of a billion of our citizens, but rather for all humans, each of whom who is morally equal to every other. If pushing the corporate interest into doing the most morally conscious good, shouldn't every human be considered as deserving of that moral conscious good as every other?

Intelligence? What do we accept? Intelligence says business must meet operating costs, and make a profit. Intelligence doesn't say that profit has to be exorbitant. As I said, the problem is not wealth, it is the degree of wealth.

In my retirement I make a product. I sell it in many parts of the world, europe, australia, japan, mexico, canada, new zealand, and america. I handmake this product. I have to have materials. So, I use american made materials and parts. This employs my fellow americans, this helps business still here in the USA. I think it is the sane thing to do. Because I live here, for god's sake.

I cannot take care of everybody, so I take care of the american people....the worker, other american businesses. In the same way that I take care of my family first, my nation second, and others HAVE to be in last place. I set priorities.

I am incessantly getting offers from china, to supply me with all of these materials and parts that I use. Even with shipping, I could cut my cost of goods sold in half! I refuse to do it. On principle. I will not send a job to china, that should be here. I simply won't do it. BUT, I have never been driven by greed, even when I owned a small manufacturing business for decades. I bought american then as well.

If I have to impoverish my own people, so that someone in china is not so poor as he was, I will not do it. That is intelligence. Afterall, I do not live in china. I live here. The chinese gov't is responsible, not me.

Are you one of those that seeks to level out wages, so that americans are paid 40 cents an hour like the communists? So that we all might be poor? How much is going to the top in your little Shangra La ?

I was raised up to take care of your own first, and then if you could help others do it as best you could. I think that is intelligence. To impoverish your own to take care of someone on the other side of the world isn't intelligence. If one was making money from that poor person who was being underpaid so my stock would yield greater returns, I see that as absolute evil driven by greed. I run away from that sort of destructive behavior. I abhor greed, and the other things of human nature that hurts others.

Each nation has the responsibility to make things right for their own people. That is their job, not mine. I must clean up my own back yard first. I do not trash my back yard and then go and make a chinese's back yard pretty. Let them do it. If I can help in ways that do not hurt my own people, I will do it. Yet this is not being done today. Because of greed, and because of idealistic people who THINK they can change the world. Hell, they can't even change themselves...and they want to change the world??? Insane.

The truth of the matter is, if we cannot change ourselves, we sure a hell can't change the world. Yet we indulge in delusions, flights of fancy, as we devastate our nation. That sir, isn't intelligence, it's stupidity.

Originally Posted by dnsmith

If I were an interviewer and sensed only a small part of your victim hood attitude the interview would be cut short. I doubt you will ever get much of a job until you start to get a little more positive about things in your life.

Would you have empathy for a rape victim? This guy is just as much a victim. He has a right to be pissed off, skeptical, hell you name it. And he has enough sense to put on his interview face and attitude if he were to talk to you about a job.

I don't see anything positive in chastising a victim of corporate greed, who sees what has happened to him and is bitter about it. I sure as hell would not interview with you! LOL. And I owned my owned manufacturing business for decades before I sold it and retired early. We are different breeds of businessmen my friend.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

They were murdered due to Hitler and Stalin reacting to 1,000 years of The Roman Empire (Thinkers) and Divinely appointed Kings (Thinkers) who spat on everybody who wasn't a Thinker.
Not to shabby a price to pay when all the Kings were getting all the housing, food and chicks and the Pope (Thinker) was surrounded by adoring Cardinals (Thinkers) and Bishops (Thinkers) and his army (Labores).
Yep, that worked out real well in the early 20th century didn't it.

I don't see events as frozen in time.
There is cause and effect and after a while the masses get pissed and kill the Thinkers and the Thinkers Laborers.

Hitler and Stalin, and Mao your hero killed or enslaved Thinkers. The Mystics of muscle.

The Pope, "Divinely" appointed. The Mystics of Spirit.

Both have the same goal, and so long as the loot lasts, they will seek to maintain control of their power.

Where you fail, is giving the mystics more power, to loot, to kill by your willingness to be a victim. Your greatest desire is to be one of the looters, that much is plain by your words.

Events are indeed frozen in time. It's called History, and you should be learning from it. So far you do not appear to have learned much from it.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

Your Sean Hannity replies are falling on deaf ears.
I know economics terms and I know the nomenclature is separate and apart from other professions.
And I know technicians make peanuts and live with their parents.

Hardware guys are literally a dime a dozens and anybody can become an administrator in a few weeks by taking an expensive course.
If you're doing alright, good for you, but it is far from being a tax accountant who can look at a 100 different scenarios and assimilate years of learning accumulated with current tax law and get you the best bracket.

Ad Hominem noted and rejected.

You deliberately used only part of what economics states on the subject. At least Goober claims to have taken economic courses beyond just the ones required for a degree.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Intelligence? What do we accept? Intelligence says business must meet operating costs, and make a profit. Intelligence doesn't say that profit has to be exorbitant.

Few businesses if ever, seldom make exorbitant wealth, and how would you measure it if they did?

As I said, the problem is not wealth, it is the degree of wealth.

Neither wealth or degree of wealth is a real issue. Take Gates and Buffet, they both have great wealth, and they are giving away great wealth.

In my retirement I make a product. I sell it in many parts of the world, europe, australia, japan, mexico, canada, new zealand, and america. I handmake this product. I have to have materials. So, I use american made materials and parts. This employs my fellow americans, this helps business still here in the USA. I think it is the sane thing to do. Because I live here, for god's sake.

I cannot take care of everybody, so I take care of the american people....the worker, other american businesses. In the same way that I take care of my family first, my nation second, and others HAVE to be in last place. I set priorities.

Priorities, priorities, what a great sounding word. My priority is to take care of the least I can find and work up from there regardless of where they live. I support 5 foster kids in a boarding school/orphanage whose families have noting to eat so the mission takes them in, feeds them, clothes them and schools them. US citizens have so little true poverty they don't know what real poverty is. Since the US government has taken over being Mom, Dad, and fairy Godfather to everyone taking care of extended family seems to be a thing of the past.

I am incessantly getting offers from china, to supply me with all of these materials and parts that I use. Even with shipping, I could cut my cost of goods sold in half! I refuse to do it. On principle. I will not send a job to china, that should be here. I simply won't do it. BUT, I have never been driven by greed, even when I owned a small manufacturing business for decades. I bought american then as well.

Well good for you. Most typical businesses would go broke doing that. [/quote]

If I have to impoverish my own people, so that someone in china is not so poor as he was, I will not do it. That is intelligence. Afterall, I do not live in china. I live here. The chinese gov't is responsible, not me. [/quote]So you obviously are a border liberal, so typical of left wing Democrats these days.

Are you one of those that seeks to level out wages, so that americans are paid 40 cents an hour like the communists? So that we all might be poor? How much is going to the top in your little Shangra La ?

Nope. I am one of those who recognizes that as 3rd world economies grow so will their wages and as their economic revolution takes place they will be elevating their labor force such that they have a decent standard of living.

I was raised up to take care of your own first, and then if you could help others do it as best you could.

I was raised that all humans are my own, not just the ones who live in my house or next door to me.

I think that is intelligence.

Well bully for you.

To impoverish your own to take care of someone on the other side of the world isn't intelligence.

I agree with that and I have no intent to impoverish "my own" and I do not believe out sourcing labor intensive jobs will do that.

If one was making money from that poor person who was being underpaid so my stock would yield greater returns, I see that as absolute evil driven by greed. I run away from that sort of destructive behavior. I abhor greed, and the other things of human nature that hurts others.

I suspect then that you abhor 5 billion 999 million, 999 thousand 999 human beings as everyone has some greed in them. The fact is, some greed, or maybe better defined as strong urges to succeed, is good and is what increases capital which in turn helps to elevate everyone who embraces that capital to advantage. It can also be called incentive, or motivation to thrive.

Each nation has the responsibility to make things right for their own people. That is their job, not mine. I must clean up my own back yard first. I do not trash my back yard and then go and make a chinese's back yard pretty. Let them do it. If I can help in ways that do not hurt my own people, I will do it. Yet this is not being done today. Because of greed, and because of idealistic people who THINK they can change the world. Hell, they can't even change themselves...and they want to change the world??? Insane.

After centuries of exploitation the Chinese are digging themselves out of a hole. So are Indians. Your take that those 3rd world countries can yank themselves up by their bootstraps reminds me of the White/Black prejudices common in the US 50 years ago when smart ass whites would denigrate blacks because they did not yank themselves up by their bootstraps to gain economic equality with whites. There must be bootstraps by which to pull up, and this is what I am talking about if you opened up your heart and mind a little. Basically you are geographically greedy just as you accuse some business of being economically greedy.

The truth of the matter is, if we cannot change ourselves, we sure a hell can't change the world. Yet we indulge in delusions, flights of fancy, as we devastate our nation. That sir, isn't intelligence, it's stupidity.

We are not devastating our nation. We have taken a small hit relatively and some have gone down a peg or two. But it is not delusion that corporate interests are not social, but rather making profits. I have seen no flight of fancy other than in the geographically liberal left wingers and intelligence is helping to create a world which is good for 6 billions of people, not just the 300+ million Americans.

The major difference I see between us is, you see the elite labor force in the US being downgraded economically 4%or 5% as devastation when it is done to elevate the standards of living of 15 to 18 times more people. We do have people who are underemployed or unemployed who live below the standards we or they would want for them, yet they are still living high on the hog when comparing them to the poor of the 3rd world. When I confront what I see as a geographically greedy individual I realize even more that I have to try within my means to help those who need it more.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Would you have empathy for a rape victim?

I have empathy for every one who is hurting. That does not mean I would hire one to work for me.

This guy is just as much a victim.

He sure as hell is and he tells us that at every turn.

He has a right to be pissed off, skeptical, hell you name it. And he has enough sense to put on his interview face and attitude if he were to talk to you about a job.

Maybe he can put on the happy face, and maybe he can't. Most experienced interviewers can sense a bad attitude, and a bad attitude in one can turn a bunch of others into bad attitudes. I was not saying he should not be distressed over his situation, I was saying he needs to correct his attitude or he will forever be locked into mediocrity.

I don't see anything positive in chastising a victim of corporate greed, who sees what has happened to him and is bitter about it. I sure as hell would not interview with you! LOL. And I owned my owned manufacturing business for decades before I sold it and retired early. We are different breeds of businessmen my friend.

So you believe I was chastising him by being honest? Not at all, I was trying to let him know he will never help himself with that frame of m one. I ran an industrial facility employing over 600 people (European - mostly German and French) and I learned the hard way that one must recognize body language and verbal communication to hire the ones who are likely the most productive. You can't hire everyone, so you have to hire those you perceive as the best. Nothing screws up a work section more than a bitter unhappy worker.

But you are right, we are different breeds of person, business or social. I suspect I have been more positively human over my years than you ever were or ever will be.

Dns says...

Few businesses if ever, seldom make exorbitant wealth, and how would you measure it if they did? Neither wealth or degree of wealth is a real issue. Take Gates and Buffet, they both have great wealth, and they are giving away great wealth.Priorities, priorities, what a great sounding word. My priority is to take care of the least I can find and work up from there regardless of where they live. I support 5 foster kids in a boarding school/orphanage whose families have noting to eat so the mission takes them in, feeds them, clothes them and schools them. US citizens have so little true poverty they don't know what real poverty is. Since the US government has taken over being Mom, Dad, and fairy Godfather to everyone taking care of extended family seems to be a thing of the past.Well good for you. Most typical businesses would go broke doing that.


BD said.
If I have to impoverish my own people, so that someone in china is not so poor as he was, I will not do it. That is intelligence. Afterall, I do not live in china. I live here. The chinese gov't is responsible, not me.


Dns said...
.Nope. I am one of those who recognizes that as 3rd world economies grow so will their wages and as their economic revolution takes place they will be elevating their labor force such that they have a decent standard of living.I was raised that all humans are my own, not just the ones who live in my house or next door to me. Well bully for you.I agree with that and I have no intent to impoverish "my own" and I do not believe out sourcing labor intensive jobs will do that. I suspect then that you abhor 5 billion 999 million, 999 thousand 999 human beings as everyone has some greed in them. The fact is, some greed, or maybe better defined as strong urges to succeed, is good and is what increases capital which in turn helps to elevate everyone who embraces that capital to advantage. It can also be called incentive, or motivation to thrive. After centuries of exploitation the Chinese are digging themselves out of a hole. So are Indians. Your take that those 3rd world countries can yank themselves up by their bootstraps reminds me of the White/Black prejudices common in the US 50 years ago when smart ass whites would denigrate blacks because they did not yank themselves up by their bootstraps to gain economic equality with whites. There must be bootstraps by which to pull up, and this is what I am talking about if you opened up your heart and mind a little. Basically you are geographically greedy just as you accuse some business of being economically greedy. We are not devastating our nation. We have taken a small hit relatively and some have gone down a peg or two. But it is not delusion that corporate interests are not social, but rather making profits. I have seen no flight of fancy other than in the geographically liberal left wingers and intelligence is helping to create a world which is good for 6 billions of people, not just the 300+ million Americans.

The major difference I see between us is, you see the elite labor force in the US being downgraded economically 4%or 5% as devastation when it is done to elevate the standards of living of 15 to 18 times more people. We do have people who are underemployed or unemployed who live below the standards we or they would want for them, yet they are still living high on the hog when comparing them to the poor of the 3rd world. When I confront what I see as a geographically greedy individual I realize even more that I have to try within my means to help those who need it more.

BD replies...

How would I measure wealth? I would look at profits made while a corporation was in america, and the profits made in communist china, or other exploitive labor places. The difference would be exorbitant. This provides the "degree of wealth" I was referring to.

Sir the degree of wealth is illustrated by the disparity of wealth, or income graphs, charts. When more is kept at the top, there is less for the middle. If too much wealth travels upward, you can kill the middle, and even impoverish working people. This is 5th grade arithmetic sir.

Yes, priorities is a great word. It brings order from chaos. It allows one to proceed with some sort of plan to address the priority. A nation should have priorities, as the individual. If those priorities mesh, things can get done. I lived my life based upon priorities. Any civilized, humane society will try to care for its poor. Our current problem with social safety net costs lie in the off shoring of 55,000 consumer goods manufacturers, who made sure they had access to the very consumer market they had a large hand in creating, by living wages, disposable income. Accept facts sir, and look without your ideology clouding your judgement.


Yes, once you open the door, for competing businesses to buy cheap labor goods, if his competitors do not do the same, he will have problems. I agree. But this loses american jobs. And if done on a large scale, you end up with long term jobless rates, who then use social safety nets. The sane thing to do is as we did for 200 years and not allow this. Otherwise you get a rush to the bottom, which is going on today.. What I do in my retirement, what I make and sell, can only be sourced from me. You can buy other cheaper copies, and people do. But I made the original, and enough people want the original, so I can charge more, and still used american made materials. I could triple my price and still sell what I make. But I am not a greedy man, so I price em, so I can only make what I want to make, part time.

You deem me a border liberal simply because I will not impoverish my own people, in favor of providing for communists? Are you sane sir? Or a hard drinker, so early in the morning? No offense, but your statement is ludicrous. I am a principled human being, who loves my nation, such as it has become. Which means I put my own, before communists, or any other nationality. If I do not do so, who will? Not you, certainly.

So the 3rd world economies will grow, which will lead to revolutions, which will bring up their wages. And because of this, you justify impoverishing americans so that these poor nations can bring up their wages. Sir, most revolutions, the exception was america, replace the gov't with something as bad or worse. You are a gambler, and wage your nation as the bet. That sir, is not intelligence at all! If these nations are to bring up their own wages, this should be done without america impoverishing her own, in order to do their work for them! You want to invest in china, fine, invest in the business that china owns. Do not cut your own peoples throats, by sending their jobs there, simply because of 40 cent an hour labor costs. This is not intelligence, it is ludicrous.


You were raised that all humans are your own? Great! I would expect you to then, not to prioritize and help your family, your friends FIRST, but perhaps second or third. I think you are full of it. I think you help your own first, your family. Don't piss on my leg sir, and tell me its raining. Look, I believe you take care of your own first, and then you can help others, if you can afford to do so. You do not leave your own on the side of a road, in order to go and help someone else, who isn't even a friend, an ally. That isn't intelligence sir. And I do not believe that you would actually do this. If so, you are irresponsible.

You do not believe outsourcing, off shoring to cheap labor, labor intensive and service jobs will impoverish you own fellow americans? UNBELIEVABLE! Well,sir that is exactly what has happened. We never used to outsource labor intensive jobs, and they are even more labor intensive at that time! Just go ahead and admit it. You do not believe a laboring job deserves a living wage, because your widget would cost you too much. That is so easy for you to say, because you are not one who lost that job! You have no vested interest at all here, except, the cost of your new widget. Yet america built the largest consumer market on earth, in history, by paying more for our widgets, that we might expand the middle and bring prosperity to millions, and millions of your fellow americans.

Man is greedy. Most of mankind is greedy. They are not only greedy by nature, but they are violent, well, consider all of he 7 deadly sins. This is a fact. You cannot deny it, nor can I. The need for survival, the desire not to worry about a roof over the head, the next meal for you and your kids, is NOT greed sir. You confuse this with greed. Greed sir is what drove american corporations to cheap labor. It is what was the root cause of the financial crash, when bankers were turned loose to satiate real greed. Real greed is destructive, dangerous, and brings disorder, suffering chaos. You cannot distinquish the two, and therein is the problem.


Sir, you compare the blacks here with the chinese, the indians. I can do that. Yet who changed our treatment of the blacks? Not some other nation, for profit!! We, the american people, our leaders changed that. The change has to come from within the nation. What happened to 3rd world nations, is history. They are no longer a part of an empire, like the british empire. If they do not pull themselves up, by their own struggle, they will not make it. But, to send american jobs to them, and impoverishing our own, is not only stupid, it is immoral. You may as well kick your kids out of your home, and take in a chinese to provide for him. I doubt you would do that.

To entertain the idea that we can bring up the world, by shipping american jobs to the world, leaving workers here destitute, is a very far left idea. That is why the left agrees with off shoring! The right on the other hand ship the jobs there for a totally different reason. They do not give a damn about indians, or communists. They care about business being able to max out profits in poor nations by exploitive labor. And that is why we are doing what is being done. You are an odd mixture between far left and far right, which is a first for me. You are extreme in all of your views, some far left, some far right. Odd.