Thread: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

Originally Posted by USCitizen

I am still waiting for a concrete example of how small business creates jobs.
I have friends who make 10 million a year who employ one or two of their children and perhaps a cost accountant who keeps his mouth shut about "kiting".
Their businesses are pretty much automated, especially those in electronics where they don't even need physical inventory.
Most small businesses employ illegals or low wage workers who can't contribute much, if anything, to a tax base that can support infrastructure.

We obviously need to start for scratch I terms of large business as our Reps can't afford to repatriate our MNCs.

Everytime I hear someone say we need to really help out small business, because they are the job creators, my first thought is, that is because all of the big business were allowed to leave.

Some small businesses employ people for a living wage, but I think most fall into the category of the guy who is the lone employee in his own business. Like me! Or a paint crew of 3 guys who struggle to survive painting remodeled houses, or small roofers, landscape folks, etc. The guy selling hot dogs from a store parking lot is small business too.

Fast food chains, retail dollar stores that pay 50 cents above min wage. If we have to rely upon small business to bring back the over 10 per cent of the middle that is gone, we will be waiting a very long time.

Originally Posted by michael h

A border liberal ... are you a conservative socialist? Do you destroy you personal budget to create jobs in the third world? No ... You suggest other Americans suffer for your ideals. What happened to real job creation instead of exporting American jobs? Its so much easier and cheaper to steal centuries of effort of hard working Americans by exporting their jobs ... then invest capital in the countries with weak economies.

Mike, I am neither a conservative, nor a socialist. I am a humanist, which means I view all humans equal in worth. I have done my time being poor and I did it for years. I am not wealthy now, but I do support 5 young people in the 3rd world. IE I put my money where my mouth is. Nobody is stealing anything from Americans. We had a down business cycle which has happened on and off for the entire time the US has been in existence. When we recognize that sending labor intensive jobs over seas will do more for our economy over time we will all be better off, including me, because the .9% I get on a large part of my capital limits my retirement significantly. My pension is not great so I moved to a part of the country where it would go further. You need to recognize that I only receive around the average income monthly and it will continue as long as this down cycle continues and interest is so low.

Originally Posted by michael h

A border liberal ... are you a conservative socialist? Do you destroy you personal budget to create jobs in the third world? No ... You suggest other Americans suffer for your ideals. What happened to real job creation instead of exporting American jobs? Its so much easier and cheaper to steal centuries of effort of hard working Americans by exporting their jobs ... then invest capital in the countries with weak economies.

Honestly, and not trying to be an asshole, this guy, DNS is an enigmatic oxymoron. First guy I ever talked with someone that is WAAAAAY out there in his beliefs. Frankly, his posts about taking care of the rest of the world, on the backs of our working people was astounding. Surreal even... not to mention totally fucking nuts. But yet, this type apparently is making policy today, and that is scarily dangerous.

I swear to god, our current times belongs on an installment of that old TV series, The Twighlight Zone. We have been pushed into an insanity, that of course has no rhyme nor reason. A collective losing of our senses. Which leaves people like me, the older people, in a sort of shell shock. One has to believe one is surrounded by idiots, in order to get any sense out of it.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

Your avoidance of your years of constant wages and benefits still haven't been posted.
You may be bitter now but you're no youngster and your union career probably sustained you for a long time.

I am not bitter like you. I am a realist. I dont talk about how long I worked union jobs or not cause it has no bearing on the conversation. I was born and spent the majority of my life in Michigan so that alone tells you about how I view unions. It is from a practical stand point.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Honestly, and not trying to be an asshole, this guy, DNS is an enigmatic oxymoron. First guy I ever talked with someone that is WAAAAAY out there in his beliefs. Frankly, his posts about taking care of the rest of the world, on the backs of our working people was astounding. Surreal even... not to mention totally fucking nuts. But yet, this type apparently is making policy today, and that is scarily dangerous.

I swear to god, our current times belongs on an installment of that old TV series, The Twighlight Zone. We have been pushed into an insanity, that of course has no rhyme nor reason. A collective losing of our senses. Which leaves people like me, the older people, in a sort of shell shock. One has to believe one is surrounded by idiots, in order to get any sense out of it.

Thankfully, in a strange way, most of the people I know just admit they're greedy and don't give a crap.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

I am still waiting for a concrete example of how small business creates jobs.
I have friends who make 10 million a year who employ one or two of their children and perhaps a cost accountant who keeps his mouth shut about "kiting".
Their businesses are pretty much automated, especially those in electronics where they don't even need physical inventory.
Most small businesses employ illegals or low wage workers who can't contribute much, if anything, to a tax base that can support infrastructure.

We obviously need to start for scratch I terms of large business as our Reps can't afford to repatriate our MNCs.

Your post brought to mind an old song, "Rambling Rose." What were you actually trying to say? Are you suggesting that small businesses tend to break the rules by kiting? By hiring illegal aliens? What about small businesses which are family businesses? I have two children involved in their own small business. Neither employs an illegal and kiting is not even an after thought. One makes and extrapolates patterns for clothing manufacturers and the other straightens, and repairs bent alloy wheels in his own shop. Both are doing well, not getting rich but in the black. Do you always assume the worst because you are one of the few who got a raw deal? Are you this pessimistic all the time?

Originally Posted by dnsmith

You need to study economics more before you get all wrapped around the axle about service industry jobs since they are such a huge and widespread part of any economy. Whether the goods are manufactured over seas or at home is not the end of the story.

As George Reisman wrote in his "Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics".http://www.capitalism.net/Capitalism...M_Internet.pdf
"Our challenge is constituted by the frequent assertion that our economy has become a "service economy" rather than an economy which concentrates of the production of goods. The basis of this assertion is the fact that more than half of the working population is now employed in rendering services rather than producing goods."

He goes on to say,

"This service-economy argument against the focus on wealth is superficial, for the following reason. Not only are agriculture, mining, construction, and manufacturing all engaged in the production of goods, but also all of the so-called service industries center on goods. Retailing and wholesaling - service industries = are the retailing and wholesaling of goods.Cleaning, repair and maintenance of goods. Transportation and communications are largely transportation of, and communications concerning, goods. Banking, finance, insurance, and advertising are services performed overwhelmingly in connection with facilitating production, distribution or ownership of goods."

And what flavor of economics should I study? The right side, or the left? I did study economics, at Ms. State Univ. I was a banking and finance major way, way back, before the deregs. I was told, it would take me 20 years in banking, to pay for my suites I was required to wear each day. SO, I changed majors to accounting. This was my second degree, as the first one was the field I was really interested in, physical anthropology, as opposed to cultural. Which by the way, there were no jobs in, back in 1972. Not without a doctorate to hang on your wall.

But what I did not have to study was an empathy for my fellow americans. You need to take courses in that sir. Instead of dwelling in your delusional world of making the world to suit your ideals of that world. You would be better off, jousting at windmills. THAT doesn't impoverish your own people, of which you really do not give a shit. Your idealism is more important. Yet without changing what man is, given our history as a species, you are pissing in the wind. Your ideals may be noble, but without a deep change in man, this idealism is stupid. Stupid because such idealism, in order to work, banks on man not corrupting it, which he invariable will do. It is called human nature. The very same nature in which greed flourishes, and when able, calls the economic shots.

Given the trend to cheap labor, what will reverse this? LOL. What drove the trend to cheap labor, the shrinking of our middle? Human nature is the root of it. I know it, and if you are honest, and have any self knowledge at all, you know it as well.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Everytime I hear someone say we need to really help out small business, because they are the job creators, my first thought is, that is because all of the big business were allowed to leave.

Some small businesses employ people for a living wage, but I think most fall into the category of the guy who is the lone employee in his own business. Like me! Or a paint crew of 3 guys who struggle to survive painting remodeled houses, or small roofers, landscape folks, etc. The guy selling hot dogs from a store parking lot is small business too.

Fast food chains, retail dollar stores that pay 50 cents above min wage. If we have to rely upon small business to bring back the over 10 per cent of the middle that is gone, we will be waiting a very long time.

Do you have any idea how many workers in the US make only minimum wage or just a little over? If you did, maybe you would stop squawking about it. I have the numbers and they are readily available. Most are kids and students starting out. Beginners still living at home earning spending money. (Please note I said MOST as there are obvious exceptions, people with no training who can't earn more.)

Originally Posted by dnsmith

Mike, I am neither a conservative, nor a socialist. I am a humanist, which means I view all humans equal in worth. I have done my time being poor and I did it for years. I am not wealthy now, but I do support 5 young people in the 3rd world. IE I put my money where my mouth is. Nobody is stealing anything from Americans. We had a down business cycle which has happened on and off for the entire time the US has been in existence. When we recognize that sending labor intensive jobs over seas will do more for our economy over time we will all be better off, including me, because the .9% I get on a large part of my capital limits my retirement significantly. My pension is not great so I moved to a part of the country where it would go further. You need to recognize that I only receive around the average income monthly and it will continue as long as this down cycle continues and interest is so low.

The cycle you speak of is much more than that. In that cycle are millions who are underemployed, and unemployed, thanks to spreading the wealth, or rather, allowing big business to max out their profits by exploiting poor people overseas. This is much more than some business cycle. And it is far from over, and when it does end, you will still have middle class folks, millions of them, no longer middle class, but in poverty, or in the class of the working poor. That is the reality.

I have seen business cycles since the 1960's. This one is different.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Honestly, and not trying to be an asshole, this guy, DNS is an enigmatic oxymoron. First guy I ever talked with someone that is WAAAAAY out there in his beliefs. Frankly, his posts about taking care of the rest of the world, on the backs of our working people was astounding. Surreal even... not to mention totally fucking nuts. But yet, this type apparently is making policy today, and that is scarily dangerous.

Amazing how you can read my posts, then turn around and say I said things I did not.

I swear to god, our current times belongs on an installment of that old TV series, The Twighlight Zone. We have been pushed into an insanity, that of course has no rhyme nor reason. A collective losing of our senses. Which leaves people like me, the older people, in a sort of shell shock. One has to believe one is surrounded by idiots, in order to get any sense out of it.

I guess your point of view makes sense if you are one of the idiots you suggest surrounds you. The fact is your comments of doom and gloom are so far out as to be laughable. Sure, we are in a down business cycle, something which happens ever so often and will happen again. If we did not have such a clown from the left wing branch of my party in office this business cycle would have gone back to normal a couple of years ago. Sure, we have about 3% of our people unemployed more than what is considered to be normal unemployment. But we are not going down the toilet, we are simply waiting for some reasonable economic policies in DC such that business is willing to risk hiring en masse again.

BTW, you really do need to read a modern economist's work. Maybe you will get a little insight into the mess you think we are in. http://www.capitalism.net/Capitalism...M_Internet.pdf

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

And what flavor of economics should I study? The right side, or the left?

How about classical economics?

But what I did not have to study was an empathy for my fellow americans.

I have empathy for my fellow Americans. I have empathy for everyone. I really can't figure how you believe an American earning an average salary (above which half of all Americans make) needs any more empathy than does a poor 3rd worlder living in a mud hut with a grass roof and a dirt floor which he made with his own hands. That is what is not understandable. I was just as smug and greedy and self absorbed and nationalistic as you until I lived in a third world country and saw first hand just how people are living, caused a great deal by the greed of the western industrialized nations who raped the 3rd world's resources and paid them back peanuts for the privileged. You BlueDoggy are the epitome of what the 3rd world calls "the ugly American."

Though many call the current wars against the west Islam vs Christianity/Judaism, it is more of a culture war between the have nots vs the haves. Think of it as PAY BACK for centuries of deprivation. There may be a few religious fanatics stirring the pot, but the typical Muslim warrior is nothing but a poor peasant who only knows we have it and they don't. If we don't resolve this unbalanced wealth situation the world will be in more turmoil in the future. That Blue Doggy is the real battle over income disparity, not the peanuts we argue about here on the forum which separate our poor from our wealthy. Rather the difference of wealth owned by our poor compared to the impoverished of the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

Everytime I hear someone say we need to really help out small business, because they are the job creators, my first thought is, that is because all of the big business were allowed to leave.

Some small businesses employ people for a living wage, but I think most fall into the category of the guy who is the lone employee in his own business. Like me! Or a paint crew of 3 guys who struggle to survive painting remodeled houses, or small roofers, landscape folks, etc. The guy selling hot dogs from a store parking lot is small business too.

Fast food chains, retail dollar stores that pay 50 cents above min wage. If we have to rely upon small business to bring back the over 10 per cent of the middle that is gone, we will be waiting a very long time.

How about some studies.

Who Creates The Most New Jobs?

Most new businesses are small businesses as well so it stands to reason that small businesses create jobs.

When is that last time you saw a BIG Corporation spring up from nothing? Other than companies splitting off from others like Lear from Ford.

With the economy in the crapper and loans to small businesses and startups we have seen a decline in new businesses and new jobs that would result.

Originally Posted by dnsmith

Amazing how you can read my posts, then turn around and say I said things I did not.

Par for the course with the liberals and marxist socialist.