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Thread: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

  1. #1576
    Blue Doggy is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    BlueDoggy, you and USCitizen seem to fall somewhere in this comment by a great economist, "Many philosophers and religious thinkers have held that the production of wealth serves only a low order of the needs of secondary importance and that concern with its production beyond the minimum necesities required for the sustenance of human life is evil, immoral, and sinful by virtue of elevating low material values to the place properly reserved only for the pursut of nobel spiritual values. If these believes were correct, then economics would at best be a science of secondary importance and preoccupation with it by serious thinkers would be a mark of perversity."

    Though I agree that wealth must first take care of human interests I am objectively aware that without the desire to accumulate wealth (great capital) there would be no great economies we have witnessed in the western world. What I object to is the lack of "spreading of the wealth" not just among western peoples, but of all workers everywhere; and by doing that we elevate the third world economies which in turn will elevate our own. There must be success to breed success and when 80% of the worlds population live in poverty we cannot claim success.
    First, a business, any business has to meet its costs, the costs of goods sold. If a business makes zero in profit, that means after all costs, including labor, the owner was paid, the workers were paid and the suppliers, etc, were paid. If the owner payed himself an upper middle class wage, or even a middle middle class wage, he is doing real well. He works from himself, he gives others a livlihood to feed their kids, and he is making a good living off of owning his own business. But beyond this, the desire is of course to accumulate more wealth, beyond his own salary, but also to have liquid capital on hand. When I owned my own small manuf business, my accountant advised me, or rather advised my wife, of HOW much we should intelligently keep on hand. Anything over this fund, was realized as income, for me. It was the creme, and it was mine. And to be honest, I did not make a fortune from this non wage money. I realized it as a bonus, every quarter, invested it things like mutual funds, a few bank cds, etc.

    From my own veiwpoint my business was a great success. Now, understand something. I could have made much more in profits if I had paid my workers less, with less fringe benefits. And since I was an anomaly in my own sector, I could have easily gotten away from the higher wages. I was quite a bit above industry average in wages. But, I had the best employees in this sector. To the point that it was a cold day in hell before anyone would call in sick. I personally made this business the best place in the world to work, by paying more, by fringe benefits I have not listed, by treating them like valued human beings, by going to the funerals of their family and friends, and by including them in the business. Then last quarter's profits were given to them as a xmas bonus, and through meetings with them having copies of our quarterly P an L statement, over time they got schooled in the basics of making a profit. The role of materials cost the waste factor, the importance of getting a job done within a timeframe, and coming in under that production time. And up until I sold out, my work family and I did real well, and had fun doing it.

    That is one type of capitalism, as it applies to a small business operation. The other type, of which I personally knew scores of the owners is what is more common, and in fact, the rule in capitalism. This other type is only concerned with the size of the bottom line, after all bills are paid, and the workers go home. In order to get wealthier, by this bottom line being as large as possible, there are various ways to do that. First, at least in any business that requires human bodies, you have labor costs, which direly affect that bottom line. In fact, in my own business, labor costs trumped everything! So there is a lot of lost profits in wages. Now, if I really want to add to that bottom line, to make it fatter, I must save money in labor costs. Like the defense spending, the social safety net spending, this part of doing business is large, and the first place one attacks when trying to maximize the wealth that this business can yield. (and of course, this was the reason big business left for china)

    To lower labor costs a business can move to china, but if it stays here it has to have cheaper labor than american labor. So, you along with other businesses join together, perhaps under the national chamber of commerce, and you do what is required to get work visas for cheap labor, to go lax in enforcing illegal immigration, you try to keep from having to make business accountable for hiring illegals, and you do what you can to go after any remaining unions, to pass right to work laws in the states, etc.

    Now, this greed that is driving these capitalists, is what you consider to be the only viable, worthwhile capitalism. Yet I am proof that this ain't necessarily the only type of capitalism that has existed. And in fact, if my type of capitalism was what we were using, America would have to put up fences and put our military on our borders to keep people out. Our middle class would be larger than ever, our poverty class only inhabited by the generational poor, the mentally inferiour.

    But my type of capitalism does not have vulgarly rich people at the top. Oh, they are still rich, because wealth is always relative to the rest of society. But you would not have billionaires, just measely millionaires. The greed of the few, will not settle for this, unless they are herded into it, by a gov't that refuses to allow the exploitation of the rich upon the poor. Yes, I am afraid like the sex drive of humans, there must be rules to channel that human nature, or otherwise some men are breeding children because they don't give a shit about other people. Their hyper sex drive controls their actions. Greed is absolutely just as powerful, if not more powerful than the sex drive. The sooner our leaders again know this, as earlier leaders did, the sooner we can return to some kind of sanity.
    "Like every other good thing in this world, leisure and culture have to be paid for. Fortunately, however, it is not the leisured and the cultured who have to pay." Aldous Huxley.

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    Blue Doggy is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by michael h View Post
    I also view all humans equal in worth and have respect for charity. I did the kids programs in central America ... not able to now.

    The way I'm seeing the 3rd world being helped is by taking from Americas market and not investment in the 3rd world. Its much easier for the bankers to move production overseas with a guaranteed of profit in America's market... then build a plant there and build the market there. This was the method for madness for decades ... an undeveloped 3rd world and supporting crazy ass leaders that raped these countries of growth. Now Americans pay for leaderships support of crazy dictators and no investment
    This taking of productivity that supports our dollar and tax base has consequences that go beyond a business cycle ... a permanent loss of prosperity.
    If one looks at the economic changes, the changes that have shrunk the middle by at least 10 per cent(that was in 2010 so perhaps a greater per cent today) if it isn't obvious as to the power of big business and banksters upon gov't, you must have been sleeping. Business is basically calling the important shots today, in fact, one could make a damn good argument that business as it seeks to max out profits is America today. America is being driven by a few business interests, or by rich men. The carnage that it leaves in it wake is mostly ignored, by the media, which is a part of this oligarchy. At least the root cause of the carnage is ignored.


    Somehow this business led America has garnered a group of americans, the conservatives that defend this rape of America being persuaded by clever propaganda, and the far left who want to level the world's wages and need no persuading at all!

    Then there are folks like me, that wonder how in the hell can such stupidity be so widespread, and why are so many willing to be the victims of the greedy trying to satiate their lusts for more and more wealth. And where is our Soma? That might help me, to take one of those pills so as to not pay any mind to the gov't allowing her own people to be used, shit on.
    "Like every other good thing in this world, leisure and culture have to be paid for. Fortunately, however, it is not the leisured and the cultured who have to pay." Aldous Huxley.

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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Doggy View Post
    If one looks at the economic changes, the changes that have shrunk the middle by at least 10 per cent(that was in 2010 so perhaps a greater per cent today) if it isn't obvious as to the power of big business and banksters upon gov't, you must have been sleeping. Business is basically calling the important shots today, in fact, one could make a damn good argument that business as it seeks to max out profits is America today. America is being driven by a few business interests, or by rich men. The carnage that it leaves in it wake is mostly ignored, by the media, which is a part of this oligarchy. At least the root cause of the carnage is ignored.


    Somehow this business led America has garnered a group of americans, the conservatives that defend this rape of America being persuaded by clever propaganda, and the far left who want to level the world's wages and need no persuading at all!

    Then there are folks like me, that wonder how in the hell can such stupidity be so widespread, and why are so many willing to be the victims of the greedy trying to satiate their lusts for more and more wealth. And where is our Soma? That might help me, to take one of those pills so as to not pay any mind to the gov't allowing her own people to be used, shit on.
    I always wonder at support for the raping of the country. Historically its always been a case of compensation ... the Persian's gold. While many do indeed rape the country for compensation ... many don't. For those that don't take the gold you hear words like self sufficiency, hard work, education, ... as if a nations economy is solely based upon such functions. Basically people don't need to be compensated to sell the country short ... you can say words like democrat, republican, gay, lazy, family, takers, union, ... anything divisive, and you get destruction for free.
    “If we open up our borders … we could suppress wages of middle class jobs” – Alan Greenspan
    We need to suppress the wage levels of the skilled. We need to suppress wages in comparison to the “lesser skilled ” - Alan Greenspan

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    dnsmith is offline Secretary of Defense
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Blue Doggy, your posts reflect a lot of partisan bullcrap. Conservatives did not rape our country. Liberals did not rape our country. No one raped our country. Bad policies by both conservatives and liberals did our corporate structure harm, especially as those policies created the huge collapse of the housing industry, which caused the last recession. That was a bipartisan collapse and recession. Then Obama came along and his policies have slowed the growth of the recovery. Corporate America is afraid to expand given Obama's regressive policies and over taxation of business. We need to shift the taxes to individuals, and sure, progressively such that those who make more pay a higher % of their income in taxes. But don't forget, one of the issues many people do not understand is, "pay roll taxes" are not really taxes, they are designed to be premiums paid to finance future pensions and possible disabilities and medicare. The cap on incomes from which those premiums are paid should be lifted and SS and MC systems to be actuarially sound. And we need to stop these culture wars in which we scuttle the welfare of labor in 3rd world countries as we have for centuries to shore up our own. That is just plain wrong. Leveling the wages of labor in the world is not the issue, it is raising the wages of labor where it is lower than ours that is the point, and the need.

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    USCitizen is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    Corporate America is afraid to expand given Obama's regressive policies and over taxation of business.
    Corporate America started leaving in droves before the 2008-crash.
    Anybody who's been reading the WSJ since at least 2006 knows this.
    In fact, by the time the crash occurred there were few corps that hadn't already abandoned the US.
    You should always have an informed opinion, so after I inform you, please feel free to express my opinion...USCitizen

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    michael h is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    Blue Doggy, your posts reflect a lot of partisan bullcrap. Conservatives did not rape our country. Liberals did not rape our country. No one raped our country. Bad policies by both conservatives and liberals did our corporate structure harm, especially as those policies created the huge collapse of the housing industry, which caused the last recession. That was a bipartisan collapse and recession. Then Obama came along and his policies have slowed the growth of the recovery. Corporate America is afraid to expand given Obama's regressive policies and over taxation of business. We need to shift the taxes to individuals, and sure, progressively such that those who make more pay a higher % of their income in taxes. But don't forget, one of the issues many people do not understand is, "pay roll taxes" are not really taxes, they are designed to be premiums paid to finance future pensions and possible disabilities and medicare. The cap on incomes from which those premiums are paid should be lifted and SS and MC systems to be actuarially sound. And we need to stop these culture wars in which we scuttle the welfare of labor in 3rd world countries as we have for centuries to shore up our own. That is just plain wrong. Leveling the wages of labor in the world is not the issue, it is raising the wages of labor where it is lower than ours that is the point, and the need.
    This isn't rocket science David. Deindustrialization created trade deficits by intent. The monies from those deficits don't take a hike ... they go into banks as financial capital ... financial capital that was invested into construction to create jobs. If we didn't deindustrialize that financial capital and low interest rates would not have been there for construction.

    Thats the simplicity ... the financial capital was supposed to be there ... by design ... for banks to play with like a newfound toy. Why did you think derivatives and financial deregulation came about? Because the middle class wanted it? Or was it because bankers wanted it?

    Again ... trade deficit = financial capital
    “If we open up our borders … we could suppress wages of middle class jobs” – Alan Greenspan
    We need to suppress the wage levels of the skilled. We need to suppress wages in comparison to the “lesser skilled ” - Alan Greenspan

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    michael h is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Does anyone here know the benefit of a huge trade deficit ... beyond having a huge credit card bill? Add to the list if you know a benefit.

    1. financial capital
    “If we open up our borders … we could suppress wages of middle class jobs” – Alan Greenspan
    We need to suppress the wage levels of the skilled. We need to suppress wages in comparison to the “lesser skilled ” - Alan Greenspan

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    dnsmith is offline Secretary of Defense
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by USCitizen View Post
    Corporate America started leaving in droves before the 2008-crash.
    Anybody who's been reading the WSJ since at least 2006 knows this.
    In fact, by the time the crash occurred there were few corps that hadn't already abandoned the US.
    Some corporations had outsourced. They didn't abandon the US. Most are still here, and they are waiting for reasonable administration policies before they expand.

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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by michael h View Post
    This isn't rocket science David. Deindustrialization created trade deficits by intent. The monies from those deficits don't take a hike ... they go into banks as financial capital ... financial capital that was invested into construction to create jobs. If we didn't deindustrialize that financial capital and low interest rates would not have been there for construction.

    Thats the simplicity ... the financial capital was supposed to be there ... by design ... for banks to play with like a newfound toy. Why did you think derivatives and financial deregulation came about? Because the middle class wanted it? Or was it because bankers wanted it?

    Again ... trade deficit = financial capital
    I think you are still looking for conspiracies. I believe most conspiracy theories are hooey.

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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    I think you are still looking for conspiracies. I believe most conspiracy theories are hooey.
    What's a conspiracy theory?
    There are no conspiracys.
    People who attend dinners and barbeques discuss many things amongst themselves, including cutting costs.
    If certain goals are technically achievable and, upon examination, quite profitable, go for it.
    Do you think CitiBank does it this week and Chase Manhattan doesn't do it next week?
    Or Microsoft or IBM or General Electric?
    Simple accounting.
    You should always have an informed opinion, so after I inform you, please feel free to express my opinion...USCitizen

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    michael h is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    I think you are still looking for conspiracies. I believe most conspiracy theories are hooey.
    David is it a conspiracy that deindustrialization was sought? Is it a conspiracy that importing the goods you use creates a trade deficit? Is it a conspiracy those dollars from a trade deficit go in the bank? Is it a conspiracy that excess financial capital creates low interest rates?

    Heres the big question David ... who gets the financial capital to play with??? Wall St? Bankers?

    A conspiracy that seems to follow simple economic theory.

    Balance of trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In the 1980s, Milton Friedman, the Nobel Prize-winning economist and father of Monetarism, contended that some of the concerns of trade deficits are unfair criticisms in an attempt to push macroeconomic policies favorable to exporting industries.
    This deficit exists as it is matched by investment coming in to the United States- purely by the definition of the balance of payments, any current account deficit that exists is matched by an inflow of foreign investment.
    He stated his belief that these trade deficits were not necessarily harmful to the economy at the time since the currency comes back to the country (country A sells to country B, country B sells to country C who buys from country A, but the trade deficit only includes A and B). However, it may be in one form or another including the possible tradeoff of foreign control of assets
    “If we open up our borders … we could suppress wages of middle class jobs” – Alan Greenspan
    We need to suppress the wage levels of the skilled. We need to suppress wages in comparison to the “lesser skilled ” - Alan Greenspan

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    michael h is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Trade and returning capital are not rocket science or hippity dipitty vodoo. Did somebody actually think the returning capital was going to sit in a bank vault? please
    “If we open up our borders … we could suppress wages of middle class jobs” – Alan Greenspan
    We need to suppress the wage levels of the skilled. We need to suppress wages in comparison to the “lesser skilled ” - Alan Greenspan

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    michael h is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Here is the retarded part ... I make billions of dollars and I'm not going to invest them or even own your country. Did it take a college educated economics professor like Friedman to dream that shit up? Really ... throw away money? Dumbass.

    In his view, the "worst case scenario" of the currency never returning to the country of origin was actually the best possible outcome: the country actually purchased its goods by exchanging them for pieces of cheaply-made paper. As Friedman put it, this would be the same result as if the exporting country burned the dollars it earned, never returning it to market circulation.
    “If we open up our borders … we could suppress wages of middle class jobs” – Alan Greenspan
    We need to suppress the wage levels of the skilled. We need to suppress wages in comparison to the “lesser skilled ” - Alan Greenspan

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    Blue Doggy is offline Vice President
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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by michael h View Post
    I always wonder at support for the raping of the country. Historically its always been a case of compensation ... the Persian's gold. While many do indeed rape the country for compensation ... many don't. For those that don't take the gold you hear words like self sufficiency, hard work, education, ... as if a nations economy is solely based upon such functions. Basically people don't need to be compensated to sell the country short ... you can say words like democrat, republican, gay, lazy, family, takers, union, ... anything divisive, and you get destruction for free.
    Beliefs, whether they be political or religious are very powerful entities in the lives of men. There is no doubt to me, that the support of the economic madness lies here, in these beliefs. Of course the physical reality of the outcome of a particular belief may change that belief, but this is very, very difficult. Beliefs are very powerful things, as one can observe. One would have to actually suffer, and perhaps suffer greatly in order to change one's beliefs. Yet it is doubtful that one would see an entire ideology as at fault, but only zero in on particular beliefs within that ideology. Few people can stomach the fact, that perhaps their beliefs were really stupid. The ego gets in the way of complete honesty with oneself, IMO.
    michael h likes this.
    "Like every other good thing in this world, leisure and culture have to be paid for. Fortunately, however, it is not the leisured and the cultured who have to pay." Aldous Huxley.

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    Re: The Real Causes of Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    Blue Doggy, your posts reflect a lot of partisan bullcrap. Conservatives did not rape our country. Liberals did not rape our country. No one raped our country. Bad policies by both conservatives and liberals did our corporate structure harm, especially as those policies created the huge collapse of the housing industry, which caused the last recession. That was a bipartisan collapse and recession. Then Obama came along and his policies have slowed the growth of the recovery. Corporate America is afraid to expand given Obama's regressive policies and over taxation of business. We need to shift the taxes to individuals, and sure, progressively such that those who make more pay a higher % of their income in taxes. But don't forget, one of the issues many people do not understand is, "pay roll taxes" are not really taxes, they are designed to be premiums paid to finance future pensions and possible disabilities and medicare. The cap on incomes from which those premiums are paid should be lifted and SS and MC systems to be actuarially sound. And we need to stop these culture wars in which we scuttle the welfare of labor in 3rd world countries as we have for centuries to shore up our own. That is just plain wrong. Leveling the wages of labor in the world is not the issue, it is raising the wages of labor where it is lower than ours that is the point, and the need.
    You are right, the cons or libs did not rape. They allowed big business and bankers to do the actual rape. When I look at all of the closed consumer goods factories with grass growing up in the parking lots that used to contain the cars of lower middle class workers, while knowing that communists and other poor workers are being exploited by business, and for one reason, to max out their wealth, it look amazingly like rape to me. And if the victim says anything about it, they are accused of waging class warfare.

    But hell, I actually believe that a nation's economy should serve the nation, as our armed forces serve the nation. Silly me! It seems we only ALL serve the nation in times of war,when the rich stand a chance of losing their great wealth! In those times, we ask everyone to chip in, and do their part. And we will even draft your ass, if you don't volunteer in great enough numbers. Thankfully the common man went and laid his life on the line for this nation, with many losing that life. We ask the highest sacrifice of our people during times of war, but don't dare you dare to demand that our business put nation above personal wealth. It is utter hypocrisy, but one expects that when wealth is involved.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    Blue Doggy, your posts reflect a lot of partisan bullcrap. Conservatives did not rape our country. Liberals did not rape our country. No one raped our country. Bad policies by both conservatives and liberals did our corporate structure harm, especially as those policies created the huge collapse of the housing industry, which caused the last recession. That was a bipartisan collapse and recession. Then Obama came along and his policies have slowed the growth of the recovery. Corporate America is afraid to expand given Obama's regressive policies and over taxation of business. We need to shift the taxes to individuals, and sure, progressively such that those who make more pay a higher % of their income in taxes. But don't forget, one of the issues many people do not understand is, "pay roll taxes" are not really taxes, they are designed to be premiums paid to finance future pensions and possible disabilities and medicare. The cap on incomes from which those premiums are paid should be lifted and SS and MC systems to be actuarially sound. And we need to stop these culture wars in which we scuttle the welfare of labor in 3rd world countries as we have for centuries to shore up our own. That is just plain wrong. Leveling the wages of labor in the world is not the issue, it is raising the wages of labor where it is lower than ours that is the point, and the need.
    You are right, the cons or libs did not rape. They allowed big business and bankers to do the actual rape. When I look at all of the closed consumer goods factories with grass growing up in the parking lots that used to contain the cars of lower middle class workers, while knowing that communists and other poor workers are being exploited by business, and for one reason, to max out their wealth, it look amazingly like rape to me. And if the victim says anything about it, they are accused of waging class warfare.

    But hell, I actually believe that a nation's economy should serve the nation, as our armed forces serve the nation. Silly me! It seems we only ALL serve the nation in times of war,when the rich stand a chance of losing their great wealth! In those times, we ask everyone to chip in, and do their part. And we will even draft your ass, if you don't volunteer in great enough numbers. Thankfully the common man went and laid his life on the line for this nation, with many losing that life. We ask the highest sacrifice of our people during times of war, but don't dare you dare to demand that our business put nation above personal wealth. It is utter hypocrisy, but one expects that when wealth is involved.
    "Like every other good thing in this world, leisure and culture have to be paid for. Fortunately, however, it is not the leisured and the cultured who have to pay." Aldous Huxley.

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