Thread: Teaching Intelligent Design

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

We have no proof that Jesus ever even lived. There is no contemporary evidence of Jesus walking on this planet.

You're wrong, Dick.

There is plenty of eye-witness, non-Biblical evidence that a man, named Jesus, called the Christ travelled around the Palestine area circa 30 AD...

Originally Posted by Good1

You're wrong, Dick.

There is plenty of eye-witness, non-Biblical evidence that a man, named Jesus, called the Christ travelled around the Palestine area circa 30 AD...

Where? I have yet to see any such thing. What I have seen are accounts first written 300 years later, recounting first person experiences. That would be the equivalent of essays being written today reporting first-person conversations with George Washington.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

I believe I already know the answer to the following questions, but I ask them anyway.

1. Is it likely that in the next 100 years humans will artificially create a life form from inert materials and energy?
2. If that happens, will your argument for ID fall apart?
3. If that happens, will you be able to accept the reality?
4. If that happens, will you just move the goal posts and say "yes, but ..."

How would our ability to practice intelligent design make the concept fall apart?

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Where? I have yet to see any such thing. What I have seen are accounts first written 300 years later, recounting first person experiences. That would be the equivalent of essays being written today reporting first-person conversations with George Washington.

I suggest you do just a tad more research on the topic, Dick.

Even Biblical accounts were written within a few decades of the events, and by those who participated in them. But start with authors like Clement (circa 90 AD) who affirmed particular passages from the book of Matthew; or Polycarp around 120 AD and Ignatius about 110 AD... all of them within one generation of Jesus walking the earth.

Putting the portion of questionable authorship aside, though, Josephus was likely the most current non-Biblical author to attest to the man named Jesus who was called the Christ.

Originally Posted by JustDee

We have proof for the validity of the universe being old enough for time to be a factor but we don't have proof that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.

There hasn't been sufficient time to overcome the improbabilites involved in life arising from chemistry. It doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

I believe I already know the answer to the following questions, but I ask them anyway.

1. Is it likely that in the next 100 years humans will artificially create a life form from inert materials and energy?
2. If that happens, will your argument for ID fall apart?
3. If that happens, will you be able to accept the reality?
4. If that happens, will you just move the goal posts and say "yes, but ..."

They will impress me when they create life from scratch. No copying of an already existant genome or what have you.

Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by darth omar

The impled claim of abiogenesis is that inert chemicals can self-arrange into living things. .

"Inert chemicals" doesn't mean anything. All chemicals, even the noble gases, are active. Chemicals with their outer valance shells are relatively stable, but even they can be reactive with the proper addition of energy or other catalyst.
The chemicals which make up organic compounds are most definitely not "inert."

For example, Hydrogen:

Hydrogen forms more compounds than any other element. The great majority of these compounds are covalent, but the cation H+ is also very important chemically because of its role in acid-base reactions. Hydrogen is also a powerful reducing agent.
Visual Elements: Hydrogen

Inert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Noble gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do creationist really think that the conditions of early earth when life began was just some collection of dirt just laying there not doing anything. Of course, they do.

Just imagine all the energy in the form of radiation and/or environment like lightning moving through the reactive chemicals on the planet. There is also plenty of evidence that amino acids were already in existence "before" life arose on the planet. The cosmos is full of precursors for life.

amino acids in space

Chemicals like this already exist premade in space.

I've studied enough chemistry [and biochemistry, microbiology, bacteriology and ad nauseum] to know that only the noble gases are 'inert' in a strict chemical sense. I mean 'inert' in a lifeless sense. Chemistry is only alive when it becomes biology.

Originally Posted by darth omar

There hasn't been sufficient time to overcome the improbabilites involved in life arising from chemistry. It doesn't work.

If you say so. That is your presumption so that the evidence won't convince you. How old is the universe and how old is the earth? You have to consider the age of the universe since the universe makes precursor molecules. The building blocks of life have been around a long time.
If the precursors are already there isn't 485,654,400,000,000,000 seconds, the estimated time between the creation of the earth and the rise of life, enough time for the improbable to occur.

Of course, this won't convince you because evidence doesn't convince creationist.

Originally Posted by darth omar

I've studied enough chemistry [and biochemistry, microbiology, bacteriology and ad nauseum] to know that only the noble gases are 'inert' in a strict chemical sense. I mean 'inert' in a lifeless sense. Chemistry is only alive when it becomes biology.

Perhaps you should start over? You might get it right this time.

Originally Posted by JustDee

If you say so. That is your presumption so that the evidence won't convince you. How old is the universe and how old is the earth? You have to consider the age of the universe since the universe makes precursor molecules. The building blocks of life have been around a long time.
If the precursors are already there isn't 485,654,400,000,000,000 seconds, the estimated time between the creation of the earth and the rise of life, enough time for the improbable to occur.

Of course, this won't convince you because evidence doesn't convince creationist.

I think it was in another thread where I said that evidence to the contrary doesn't convince the already convinced. And this is very much a two way street. You will have about as much luck talking a turtle out of its shell as convince an evolutionist that the theory just might be inadequate.

Same ditto with doctrinare young earth creationists. The two are birds of a feather.

Yes, I am a Christian, but I stand on Hebrews 11. Through faith, I understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. I don't pretend to know how. To me, the universe can be 6,000 thousand years old or 6,000 billion years old. It doesn't matter to me. And God could have used evolution to create us, but I see no compelling evidence that He did.

His creation remains a mystery to me.

Originally Posted by darth omar

I think it was in another thread where I said that evidence to the contrary doesn't convince the already convinced. And this is very much a two way street. You will have about as much luck talking a turtle out of its shell as convince an evolutionist that the theory just might be inadequate.

Same ditto with doctrinare young earth creationists. The two are birds of a feather.

Yes, I am a Christian, but I stand on Hebrews 11. Through faith, I understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. I don't pretend to know how. To me, the universe can be 6,000 thousand years old or 6,000 billion years old. It doesn't matter to me. And God could have used evolution to create us, but I see no compelling evidence that He did.

His creation remains a mystery to me.

Oh, I have no problem realizing the theory of evolution is inadequate in some areas. However, just because there are inaccuracies and inadequacies don't make me think god is the missing piece.

AronRa says it this way: "Science doesn't know everything. Religion doesn't know anything."

YouTube - ‪AronRa's Channel‬‏

Here is a good video to begin with.