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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
IIIX's Avatar
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
THAT was my point, the OP began the thread by talking about isolated incidents as proof to her claim of global warming. I responded by posting an individual incident that runs counter to her claim, thus attempting to demonstrate that individual incidents are not indicitive of the existence or nonexistence of global warming.
The point is that ski resorts have had troubles not just this autumn (which was the warmest recorded since there are accurate measures in Europe) but that since more than a decade, the average temperature has been very high and thus, the amount of snow was insufficient.

It is also thought that an increase in the average number of extreme climatological events is a sign of a global climate change.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
There is no evidence that water vapor has increased signficantly in the last century. CO2 has, stayed for 850 years around the 1850 level. But afterwards it started to rocket. Weird coincidence. Isnt it?
Actually, I am not surprised. The Krakatoa eruption of 1883 was said to have spewed more pollutants, co2, carbon monoxide, and ash into the atmosphere as all the combined entire human generated pollution ever generated from the beginning of our existence to the present. Only 1/3 of Krakatau remained. The rest was launched as a volcanic dust veil that created a solar radiation filter, lowered global temperatures that did not return to normal for five years.

Krakatau before 1883:


Krakatau after 1883:


Nature is much, much larger and more powerful than humans will ever be. All of the years of the human species existence hasn't spewed as much heat, water vapor, dust, pollution or toxins as that single Krakatoa eruption.
Quote:
Menace in the Skies

Pollution's First Victim. Air pollution, commonly thought to be a result of the industrial revolution, actually preceded man himself.
Nature has long contaminated the air with sand and dust storms, with forest fires and volcanic eruptions that spew tons of particles and gases into the atmosphere. When Krakatoa, a volcano in the East Indies, blew up in 1883, the debris and dust it hurled into the air spread around the globe, darkening daytime skies for hundreds of miles. Krakatoa dust, suspended in the atmosphere, produced spectacularly ruddy sunsets and sunrises the world over for months after the blast.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by kinetic View Post
Actually, I am not surprised. The Krakatoa eruption of 1883 was said to have spewed more pollutants, co2, carbon monoxide, and ash into the atmosphere as all the combined entire human generated pollution ever generated from the beginning of our existence to the present. Only 1/3 of Krakatau remained. The rest was launched as a volcanic dust veil that created a solar radiation filter, lowered global temperatures that did not return to normal for five years.

Krakatau before 1883:


Krakatau after 1883:


Nature is much, much larger and more powerful than humans will ever be. All of the years of the human species existence hasn't spewed as much heat, water vapor, dust, pollution or toxins as that single Krakatoa eruption.
Yes nature is pretty huge.
Humans are pretty tiny.

But humans matter. We have changed whole ecosystems. Not in a planned way, because we did not see the consequences of our acts and also because we could not prevent them.


Its our obligation for the future to find out, what we influence and what not. Dont forget, also small humans can have large impact.Not necessarily but possibly. Size alone is no argument.

Or who caused the Ozon hole? Who?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Or who caused the Ozon hole? Who?
No one causes ozone depletion. Nature does.
Quote:
Volcanoes, Ozone Holes, Natural Disasters, Atmosphere, Environmental Issues, Air Quality
Volcanic Aerosol Clouds And Gases Lead To Ozone Destruction

Volcanic eruptions destroy ozone and create 'mini-ozone holes', according to two new studies by researchers at the Universities of Cambridge and Oxford.
November 8, 2006



The new research, spearheaded by Dr Genevieve Millard at the Department of Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge, discovered that volcanic gases released during eruptions accelerate reactions that lead to ozone destruction. The researchers found that even relatively small volcanic eruptions can destroy ozone and create localised 'holes' in the stratosphere. Previously, scientists had concentrated on the climatic effects of the tiny particles of volcanic sulphate created from the sulphur dioxide gas emitted during an eruption.

For the first time, analysing data from a 2000 eruption of the Hekla volcano, Iceland, the researchers discovered that volcanic gases may also lead to the formation of ice and nitric acid particles. This is a critical finding as these particles 'switch on' volcanic chorine gases, accelerating reactions that lead to ozone destruction.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by kinetic View Post
Actually, I am not surprised. The Krakatoa eruption of 1883 was said to have spewed more pollutants, co2, carbon monoxide, and ash into the atmosphere as all the combined entire human generated pollution ever generated from the beginning of our existence to the present.
Remove the co2 from that list and you might be right. Krakatoa definitely did not emit 28 billion tons of co2, which is what humans emit each year.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by kinetic View Post
No one causes ozone depletion. Nature does.





Ever asked yourself why CFC's have been banned so rigidly?
Thats stuff that normally is not to be found in the higher areas of atmosphere. Until human emitted them in larger style. Then they fueled a chainreaction, in which the CFC's catalized a massive Ozon decrease. It will take according to estimations around 50 years until the CFC levels are back at being insignificant again.

Last edited by Slartibartfas; 01-20-2007 at 10:17 AM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by onon View Post
Remove the co2 from that list and you might be right. Krakatoa definitely did not emit 28 billion tons of co2, which is what humans emit each year.
Nonsense. Natural occurances dominate anything humans could do.
Quote:


These dead and dying trees on the south side of Mammoth Mountain volcano (peak in distance) in eastern California were first noticed in 1990. Since then, about 170 acres of trees have died. When the area was examined in 1990, exceptionally high concentrations of carbon dioxide gas were found in the soil beneath the trees. What caused such high concentrations of carbon dioxide gas? The most likely sources of the carbon dioxide are (1) magma that intruded beneath Mammoth Mountain during an earthquake swarm in 1989; and (2) limestone-rich rocks surrounding the intrusion (CO2 is released from limestone (CaCO3) when heated).
Quote:
Volcanic Gases and Their Effects



Types of volcanic gases
The most abundant gas typically released into the atmosphere from volcanic systems is water vapor (H20), followed by carbon dioxide (C02) and sulfur dioxide (S02). Volcanoes also release smaller amounts of others gases, including hydrogen sulfide (H2S), hydrogen (H2), carbon monoxide (CO), hydrogen chloride (HCL), hydrogen fluoride (HF), and helium (He).
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

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Originally Posted by kinetic View Post
Nonsense. Natural occurances dominate anything humans could do.
Simply not true though. Humans emit 28 billion tons of co2 per year. That's 28 billion tons extra than was being emitted 200 years ago. Taht extra is enough to kick the carbon cycle out of balance. That is enough to be causing co2 to be rising in the atmosphere at 15 billion tons per year

Without man's extra 28 billion tons co2 per year, how could co2 be rising at about 15 billion tons per year?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by onon View Post
Simply not true though. Humans emit 28 billion tons of co2 per year.
Humans produce a small amount of all co2 I claimed that it was 3.5% but this is indispute.
Quote:
Global Warming
January 20, 2007



We’ve been trying and trying to see if there really is compelling evidence that humans are the cause of global warming, and we can’t. With most contrarian positions we’ve published, whether they regarded DDT, GMO’s, Chemicals, Recycling, Nuclear Power, The Hydrogen Hoax, Transportation, or Suburban Sprawl, it’s been pretty easy to allow differing points of view to be expressed - and remain a passionate environmentalist. But are global warming theories, like these other issues, really still open to debate?

. . . and the scientists we’ve questioned have quickly either given up trying to explain, saying the issues were too complex for a lay person to understand, or they abandoned their initial position and acknowleged that we aren’t really sure whether or not global warming is a product of human industrial activity. humans only produce about 5% of the yearly CO2 that spews into the atmosphere,

In the June 26th editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, a professor of atmospheric science at MIT, Richard S. Lindzen, opined "There is no ‘consensus’ on Global Warming.” In his essay, he says “Nonscientists generally do not want to bother with understanding the science. Claims of consensus relieve policy types, environmental advocates and politicians of any need to do so.”

Global warming is an environmental challenge of potentially cataclysmic proportions. But that doesn’t justify pretending the theory - that global warming is caused by human-produced CO2 - is beyond debate.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by IIIX View Post
The point is that ski resorts have had troubles not just this autumn (which was the warmest recorded since there are accurate measures in Europe) but that since more than a decade, the average temperature has been very high and thus, the amount of snow was insufficient.

It is also thought that an increase in the average number of extreme climatological events is a sign of a global climate change.
yes.

I doubt that the OECD would have been raising the issue if it were just a one off. IT is quite clearly a trend that has been continuing over a period of time - and it is not an isolated case. Incidents like this - ie - where local conditions are being affected by global warming - are happening all over the world.

In many instances they are beginning to have serious impacts on local economies, not only those which rely on toursit dollars, but also food production.

The impacts of this are real, and keeping our heads in the sand will mean the future will be MORE difficult, not less.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by kinetic View Post
Humans produce a small amount of all co2 I claimed that it was 3.5% but this is indispute.
In dispute by several orders of magnitude??? That's not true. NO DATA SUPPORT THIS.

Stop being obtuse. Please. This is getting stupid.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

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Originally Posted by Kijana View Post
In dispute by several orders of magnitude??? That's not true. NO DATA SUPPORT THIS.

Stop being obtuse. Please. This is getting stupid.
Humans only produce about 5% of the yearly CO2, tops. The other 95% comes from natural phenomenon.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by kinetic View Post
Humans produce a small amount of all co2 I claimed that it was 3.5% but this is indispute.
Quote:
Humans only produce about 5% of the yearly CO2, tops. The other 95% comes from natural phenomenon.
But if natural phenomenon are emitting 550 billion tons of co2 per year into the atmosphere (95%), why is co2 in the atmosphere only accumulating at 15 billion tons per year?

How can you add 550 to something but it only increases by 15?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

In New Mexico, the season started late. But we have had record snowfalls.

2 weeks ago, we had more snowfall in Albuquerque than ever recorded.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2007
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Re: Ski resorts affected by climate change

Quote:
Originally Posted by onon View Post
But if natural phenomenon are emitting 550 billion tons of co2 per year into the atmosphere (95%), why is co2 in the atmosphere only accumulating at 15 billion tons per year?

How can you add 550 to something but it only increases by 15?
I have no overview over numbers. But the CO2 houshold is a dynamic thing. We do not only have sources of CO2 (natural and human), we also have consumers that take CO2 out of the atmosphere.

The difference between both amounts to the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere. As largest consumer of CO2 there is to count the algal life in oceans. They bind huge amounts of this gas. Far smaller but also significant is also the storing of CO2 in trees.
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