Far smarter than one which would call for the complete collapse of the economy; oh Hell yeah...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Why? Wouldn't a different economy that includes long term sustainability and the health of rivers, oceans, air, and land within its value system be much smarter than the current economic system?

You were the one who argued that people will not change voluntarily, that they would laugh in my face.....


So again, why would i not wish for its collapse?

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

I really don't get this.... what is so great about the current state of the world and its economy that it is worth preserving?

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Oh, it may very well be. But wishing for a complete collapse is short-sighted, at best. "Collapse" suggests something very, very sudden. People wouldn't have time to adjust to "less" so, following a complete collapse, would be only be interested in getting back to where they were prior to that collapse...

Hey, go for it. It's fuckin' stupid, but whatever blows your skirt up...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

But you said people will never ever change???? Obviously if you believe this you think it won't happen gradually, so the only desirable option is collapse.

Or do you now think that people will change?

What exactly makes it stupid? And what exactly makes it any stupider than the status quo?

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

So these people are supposed to research global warming with dozens of factors and hundreds of relations between them but they couldnt predict how fast ice melts?

Hereby I've lost all trust in whoever claims to be a climate scientist.

And andrew seriously you are wishing for the economy to collapse? to be thrown back to the stone age? No thanks id rather buy my food at the supermarket in 10 minutes in stead of having to hunt for it all day while not even being able to cook it.

Thats a little unfair. Scientists are typically cautious about making predictions, especially when it comes to phenomena they have never had a chance to observe before.

Such a large chunk of ice melting is bound to throw twists into the physics... which it has.

I'm more just having fun with Steve's idea that people will always choose profit over the health of the planet. He is probably right, and if we are at all concerned about preserving what we have, should we not wish for the collapse of this economy? Isn't it stupid to just keep going as we are, pretending it will all work out in the end, or worse, that god will save us?

Or do you think we can change? I too don't want to go back to the stone age, i imagine a period of chaos and then a transition, through necessity, to a more realistic and sane lifestyle, based on local modes of food production built off sustainability and renewable sources, carrying with us all sorts of knowledge from before, but hopefully learning from our mistakes and not being so destructive and wasteful as the past. Wouldn't that be awesome?

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Thanks, we agree fully on this one.

We are trying to change this.

Judging by your responses on this thread and others, there isn't a point articulating anything to you. Andrew made a great attempt, and you responded with insults. Those insults shall be reported, FYI.

the 'economic impact factor' is a scare tactic.

look at California

"One of California’s most effective methods has also been the easiest to understand - use less.

California has invested in energy efficiency for more than three decades, spurred on by the need to survive economically. Today Californians use half as much energy as their fellow Americans and the Sunshine state has managed to reduce their carbon emissions by a third.

Their methods are broad and varied – from adopting stringent building standards to the more visionary, such as convincing energy companies it pays more to sell less."

http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/ (1st May 2007 - the Heat is on)

Is California up shit creek economically?

insurance companies are already counting the costs of NOT doing something ... and quite frankly I'm getting sick to death of people on this forum behaving as if I want them to wear hair shirts and travel around in a horse and buggy.

I drive a car, I live comfortably, I'm not freezing cold in winter/boiling hot in summer ... but my eco footprint is less than 1/3 the average Australian's. I haven't really needed to invest huge money, either. In fact - I save money by living sensibly.

There is also money to be made in green investment.

Yea, receding ice caps from the ice age are like melting ice cubes. The smaller they get the faster they melt. If I’m not mistaken, in a few thousand years the Artic Ocean will be covered completely again…

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Only a liberal would know how hard it is to get a nicotine patch to stick to a monkey.

You are partly right DaisyM. We could go much farther with conservation, much much farther. But we can only go so far. Eventually you hit a limit. And if we still rely on a growth economy, profit, and the centralization of wealth and power when we have hit our conservation limits, we will still be destroying the landbase on an ever increasing scale. And that is not sustainbale.

Its great that some people can lower their footprint. But they still live in societies heavily dependent on resource exploitation. As long as society still puts value in massive free market global corporations we will continue to deforest at alarming rates, we will continue to fish the oceans and lakes at industrial levels, and we will continue to emit poisonous toxins into the rivers, air, and soil. We will continue to play god with the earth as if we have 'dominion'. The environmental movement started many decades ago, and it has not slowed down the killing of the planet at all.

andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

So what does that tell you?

It tells me that it's a complete waste of time...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Exactly. So if we genuinely do value the environment, how should we respond? Or should we just sit back, get fat, and let it happen? Tell ourselves we can't do anything about it so we might as well indulge in it. God will sort it out.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Sounds like a plan to me. Thanks for figuring that all out for us...

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Obama's New "57 State Patriotic Pin":




Sayeth John Drake - 10/13/08: "OK, you're right, I admit to LYING"

Nah...id rather see it all collapse sooner rather than later.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown